The goal of T vs the goal of F

[murkrow]

I've discussed the transcendence that NTs often achieve in the rational acceptance of all things and it seems to me that the goal of our thinking is actually to stop thinking.

I'm wondering how this relates to the realization of the F function, is it a state of constant deep yet calm feeling? Is there more to be satisfied?

It seems to me that NTs are more death obsessed than anything, our focus is on the absolute and undeniable so it makes sense that our culmination comes in a moment of semi death (the lack of insecure drive to experience more, know more, feel more).

If NT is death is NF life will the melancholy and self doubt that plagues NFs fall away in self realization tobe replaced with some extreme level of joie-de-vivre the same way an NT's sense of superiority wilts away to acceptance of cosmic placement?

[BlueWing]

Thinking arrives at the calm by eliminating passion which leads to intensity. The effect of 'stopping thinking' that you mention is a result of elimination of passion as well. Passion is necessary to incite all action. If Feeling is repressed to a certain degree we will not even have enough energy to think. We will stop thinking as you have mentioned.

This is the explanation for how the aforementioned calm happens.

Feeling desires as intense of passion as possible. This is the opposite of calm.

[Magic Poriferan]

Feeling desires as intense of passion as possible. This is the opposite of calm.

On what do you base this?
It seems to me that a lot of Feelers want peace and calm.

[Magic Poriferan]

As for the OP. I'm not sure that I follow the premise. I don't think my goal is to stop Thinking. I consider Thinking a pass time, and a welcome pre-occupation. Mental oblivion is not something I'm looking forward to.

[sriv]

Feeling desires as intense of passion as possible. This is the opposite of calm.
Heheh. Emotional entropy. Interesting.

[reason]

I've discussed the transcendence that NTs often achieve in the rational acceptance of all things and it seems to me that the goal of our thinking is actually to stop thinking.

...

It seems to me that NTs are more death obsessed than anything, our focus is on the absolute and undeniable so it makes sense that our culmination comes in a moment of semi death (the lack of insecure drive to experience more, know more, feel more).What have you been smoking? The goal of an NT is to stop thinking? NTs are obsessed with death? Which type profiles have you been reading? Were they on a teenage-goth website? It makes sense that the culmination of an NT comes in the moment of semi-death!!?!

That's it, I am out of rhetorical questions, for now.

[TrueHeart]

Feeling desires as intense of passion as possible.
Speaking as a DomFi, I do not believe that to be true, at least not in an absolute or general sense. Could you cite some authority? Thanks.

[Jeffster]

My goal is to find the perfect cheeseburger.

[Night]

Transcendence?

It's...revealing...that you link a state of profound psychospiritual awareness to something as oblique as the MBTI.

I'd follow it to conclusion. You'll find what you deserve.

[Jeffster]

Transcendence?

It's...revealing...that you link a state of profound psychospiritual awareness to something as oblique as the MBTI.

I'd follow it to conclusion. You'll find what you deserve.

Yeah. What Night said. I mean, he totally stole my answer, I was so about to say that.

[Sunshine]

Yeah. What Night said. I mean, he totally stole my answer, I was so about to say that.

Hehehe. That made me laugh out loud.

Night, did people copy off of you in high school?

Sorry to be off topic. Here let me say something semi on topic:

Sometimes I prefer calm. Sometimes I prefer intensity of feeling.

This thread is kind of interesting.

[ThatGirl]

I am not sure if this is what you are referring to or not but I understand the not thinking thing in my own way. I am often reminded of the saying in the bible that says something along the lines of "you have come to know and believe in me because you have seen me. Blessed are they who have not seen who have not known and still believe." Again this is not a direct quote. I think that sometimes the ability to strip away the silver lining is an intense weakness for NT and it has been a goal of mine to control the thought process. I can't help but think that there is a world outside of the truth that could be beneficial to connect to. I, however, become controlled by my thoughts in which this is far from reality. At the same time when my thoughts are dulled, it can be increasingly frustrating to watch opportunity no matter how insignificant pass by without being mentally quick enough to grab it. Inevitably I find myself wanting to keep the NT character without being compelled by the over analytical ramblings. I question however if that can exist. Is the goal ultimate certainty?

[murkrow]

I am not sure if this is what you are referring to or not but I understand the not thinking thing in my own way. I am often reminded of the saying in the bible that says something along the lines of "you have come to know and believe in me because you have seen me. Blessed are they who have not seen who have not known and still believe." Again this is not a direct quote. I think that sometimes the ability to strip away the silver lining is an intense weakness for NT and it has been a goal of mine to control the thought process. I can't help but think that there is a world outside of the truth that could be beneficial to connect to. I, however, become controlled by my thoughts in which this is far from reality. At the same time when my thoughts are dulled, it can be increasingly frustrating to watch opportunity no matter how insignificant pass by without being mentally quick enough to grab it. Inevitably I find myself wanting to keep the NT character without being compelled by the over analytical ramblings. I question however if that can exist. Is the goal ultimate certainty?

I think the goal has more to do with awareness than certainty. Certainty seems pretty selfish and we can only be truly calm when we forget the self.

Forget might be the wrong word, destroy? abolish?

[ThatGirl]

What does certainty have to do with the self? I would think it would pretain more to truth. Although on a side note the only thing anyone can speak about with utmost certainty is the self. hmmm.....

[murkrow]

No, there is no self to be certain of.

[ThatGirl]

then there would be no selfishness.

[murkrow]

When you accept there is no self, that is correct.

[ThatGirl]

So you believe that certainty is relative?

[Jack Flak]

"It doesn't matter...It doesn't matter why they're dressed as a tiger! Have they got my leg?!"

[reason]

No, there is no self to be certain of.Are you suggesting that people can't be certain of things which do not exist? I think that there are very many people who would contradict that claim.

[Hmm]

It seems to me that a lot of Feelers want peace and calm.

Yes, this is true. And sometimes feeling is calming for me depending on what it is.

Mental oblivion is not something I'm looking forward to.

Yeah, sounds like being a vegetable. The ebbs and flows of Thinking and Feeling are what make you FEEL :hi: alive.

[Ilah]

Thinking, especially analyzing things, having intellectual conversation and learning new things makes me intensly happy. It gives me a deep personally satisfaction and contentment. As one of my big pleasures in life, I don't feel any desire to stop thinking.

However, there are times when I temporarily turn down my thinking so I can focus more on my N and S. For example, when I day dream I don't stop and think about how logical the story is and when I enjoy my food I don't stop to analyze it.

There is a desire to know everything about a subject. If I do learn everything I can find about a subject, it is staifying but also a little sad because there is no more to learn. Fortunately there are many more things I can learn about.

There is a kind of knowing without thinking that can be very satisying, but this would be N. Although Ni is my dominant, I don't have any desire to replace T completely with N.

Ilah

[Jennifer]

I've discussed the transcendence that NTs often achieve in the rational acceptance of all things and it seems to me that the goal of our thinking is actually to stop thinking.

Can you actually lump Te and Ti together like that? Especially for NTs where thinking is not dominant?

ENTJ = Te dom
INTJ = Ni dom, Te AUX
ENTP = Ne dom, Ti AUX
INTP = Ti dom

Thinking is not only different for each NT, but for two of them it's not even the dominant!

The "NT" category is an arbitrary category, so I don't think you can use it to definite the Thinking function for what in actuality are four different "types of critters." Especially for the two where Thinking is subservient to N.

[substitute]

I've no idea what Feelers' goals are, but I know I do relate in some way to what you say Murkrow in the OP, that it is indeed my goal to stop thinking, that total acceptance of reality and just working my way into it. Sorta like surveying a huge carpet from above, knowing I'm a thread that's got itself unravelled, wanting to figure out where to weave myself back in and then just stay there in my place, doing my job without thinking, without needing to think or needing anything. Just doing my job, like water.

"Blessed are you Lord in our sister Water, who is useful and precious and humble and chaste" - St Francis of Assisi

I believe the Tao Teh Ching says something similar.

That calm peacefulness that the Feelers have talked about is something I experience all the time... when there are no Feelers nearby! :laugh:

[murkrow]

Can you actually lump Te and Ti together like that? Especially for NTs where thinking is not dominant?

ENTJ = Te dom
INTJ = Ni dom, Te AUX
ENTP = Ne dom, Ti AUX
INTP = Ti dom

Thinking is not only different for each NT, but for two of them it's not even the dominant!

The "NT" category is an arbitrary category, so I don't think you can use it to definite the Thinking function for what in actuality are four different "types of critters." Especially for the two where Thinking is subservient to N.

I very much doubt the ability of N dominated NTs to come to a state of inner peace without first disarming their T.

The majority of my discussions on this topic have been with INTPs, and they agree.

[Jennifer]

I very much doubt the ability of N dominated NTs to come to a state of inner peace without first disarming their T.

Oh, a cogent argument.
I'm convinced.

The majority of my discussions on this topic have been with INTPs, and they agree.

Oh. Sorry, I forgot about the "appeal to authority" and "majority rules" concepts.
Carry on, of course. I humbly withdraw my foolish protest. ;)