Freud and Jung

[Victor]

Freud ran from the Nazis.

And Jung ran to the Nazis.

[Edahn]

And I ran away from this thread.

[alcea rosea]

:laugh:

[Magic Poriferan]

Freud is a tool.
Jung is cool.
:cool:

[Victor]

And I ran away from this thread.

And instinctively you did the right thing for Jung wrote, "Personality Types", from which MBTI is copied.

[Victor]

Freud is a tool.
Jung is cool.
:cool:

Freud was a psychoanalyst while Jung was a guru.

[Victor]

:laugh:

Jung preached religion and romanticism.

While Freud practised reason.

[disregard]

That's nice.

Maybe you should start a blog.

[Victor]

And religion and romanticism are the enemies of the Enlightenment.

[Magic Poriferan]

Jung preached religion and romanticism.

While Freud practised reason.

On what basis could you possibly make this claim? Freud had a hundred crack-pot theories that were no more than conjecture, but stated with the auhority of sceintific absolutism. Just because Freud said it was so, and a bunch sheep followed his tone of auhority, does not mean that Freud was a man of reason. It he seemed quite the opposite to me.

Now Jung had some mysticism about him, but certainly no less than Freud, and I would say that Jung's ideas probably came closer to the reality of how the mind works, having described it has a machine of modular, functional process of varrying abilities.

Jung also wasn't so completely obsessed with sexuality, so he didn't overmphasize it, nor was he quite as prone to label things pathological. Freud did it left an right.

And from here on out, let me say that I don't care about how Freud or Jung related to the Nazis, because that doesn't say anything about the legitimacy of their theories.

[Victor]

On what basis could you possibly make this claim? Freud had a hundred crack-pot theories that were no more than conjecture, but stated with the auhority of sceintific absolutism. Just because Freud said it was so, and a bunch sheep followed his tone of auhority, does not mean that Freud was a man of reason. It he seemed quite the opposite to me.

Now Jung had some mysticism about him, but certainly no less than Freud, and I would say that Jung's ideas probably came closer to the reality of how the mind works, having described it has a machine of modular, functional process of varrying abilities.

Jung also wasn't so completely obsessed with sexuality, so he didn't overmphasize it, nor was he quite as prone to label things pathological. Freud did it left an right.

And from here on out, let me say that I don't care about how Freud or Jung related to the Nazis, because that doesn't say anything about the legitimacy of their theories.

Jung, Islam and the Nazis are all opposed to the Enlightenment.

And the Enlightenment gave us everything we value around us.

And the Enlightenment is synonymous with reason and freedom.

[Magic Poriferan]

Jung, Islam and the Nazis are all opposed to the Enlightenment.

That's an odd statement, in so far as I can't tell what it's purpose or relevance is. The only relevant thing I can pick out of that is the comment about Jung, and I don't think he was exactly against the whole enlightenment.


And the Enlightenment gave us everything we value around us.

Huge over-statement.


And the Enlightenment is synonymous with reason and freedom.

Ehhh.. it meant less freedom for some people. And what about it being a synonym with reason? This seems to be the making of some kind of pseudo-logical equation.

In general, what you said was psycho-babble that seemed rather incoherent to my response.

[runvardh]

I'd like to know this "the Enlightenment" is, you almost make it sound like a religion itself.

Edit: and yes, you should set up your own blog. looks like you need one badly.

[Magic Poriferan]

I'd like to know this "the Enlightenment" is, you almost make it sound like a religion itself.

Edit: and yes, you should set up your own blog. looks like you need one badly.

He's referring to this: Age of Enlightenment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_enlightenment)

[runvardh]

He's referring to this: Age of Enlightenment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_enlightenment)

No wonder science has become it's own religion...

[Nocapszy]

Re: Victor on Enlightenment

Why do you even indulge him?

[Nocapszy]

No wonder science has become it's own religion...

NO!
NEVER!
RELIGION?
YOU'RE WRONG! LOOK IF WE CALCULATE THESE TWO FACTORS X AND Z WE'RE INSTANTLY DRAWN TO THIS CONCLUSION. SCIENCE IS NO RELIGION.


(No seriously it's not a religion: Science actually has potential, but almost all of the scientific community could pass for zealots)

[Magic Poriferan]

Why do you even indulge him?

Whenever people ask me a question like this, I always say "I'm sharpening my knives".

[Nocapszy]

Fair enough.

[Victor]

I'd like to know this "the Enlightenment" is, you almost make it sound like a religion itself.


The Enlightenment is very important - you might even say of overriding importance in relations between your country and mine.

For your country was founded by Religious Dissidents while mine was founded by the Scottish and English Enlightenment.

[Magic Poriferan]

What was that?

The Enlightenment is very important - you might even say of overriding importance in relations between your country and mine.

For your country was founded by Religious Dissidents while mine was founded by the Scottish and English Enlightenment. Deported criminals.

[Victor]

That's an odd statement, in so far as I can't tell what it's purpose or relevance is. The only relevant thing I can pick out of that is the comment about Jung, and I don't think he was exactly against the whole enlightenment.


Outside of the West, Islam did not go through the Enlightenment and remains opposed to it all.

Within the West, Religion and Romanticism opposed the Enlightenment.

Within the West, about 1900, Religion declared the Enlightenment to be a Heresy.

And the very point of the Romantic Movement was to oppose the Enlightenment.

Freud was in the tradition of the Enlightenment.

While Jung was in the tradition of the New Age Religion, as is MBTI.

[Victor]

And what about it being a synonym with reason? This seems to be the making of some kind of pseudo-logical equation.


Reason is the leitmotif of the Enlightenment.

Why, the French Enlightenment installed the Goddess of Reason in Notre Dame Cathedral in the very heart of Paris.

[Magic Poriferan]

Outside of the West, Islam did not go through the Enlightenment and remains opposed to it all.

Within the West, Religion and Romanticism opposed the Enlightenment.

Within the West, about 1900, Religion declared the Enlightenment to be a Heresy.

And the very point of the Romantic Movement was to oppose the Enlightenment.

Freud was in the tradition of the Enlightenment.

While Jung was in the tradition of the New Age Religion, as is MBTI.

Okay... Of all my possible targets, I think I'm just going to re-state that the enlightenment wasn't all good and the counter-enlightenment wasn't all bad.
And the enlightenment certainly isn't responsible for everything we value today... in fact, many believe that the counter-enlightenment beliefs were important to giving us what we value. The culture of the enlightenment was very elitist, and most non-elitist or anti-elitist concepts we value are owed more to counter-enlightenment thinking. Furthmore, any claims of dominion over reason by the "enlightened" is certainly folly. Essentially none of the enlightenment's critics, save perhaps the dogmatically religious, were skeptical of the value of reasoning.

Reason is the leitmotif of the Enlightenment.

Why, the French Enlightenment installed the Goddess of Reason in Notre Dame Cathedral in the very heart of Paris.

Doesn't it seem terribly ironic to you that the enlightened thinkers would erect a statue of a goddess to represent reason?

[Victor]

Doesn't it seem terribly ironic to you that the enlightened thinkers would erect a statue of a goddess to represent reason?

Of course, and it was deliciously ironic for the Enlightened who installed her in the very heart of the enemy.

Irony was the very point of installing her in the heart of Religion, in Notre Dame Cathedral.

I understand it was quite a carnival.

[Victor]

The culture of the enlightenment was very elitist, and most non-elitist or anti-elitist concepts we value are owed more to counter-enlightenment thinking.

Quite the opposite.

The Enlightenment gave us, "one vote, one value".

And the Enlightenment gave us the secret ballot, called the Australian ballot.

The Enlightenment gave us votes for women, first achieved in Australia.

And the Enlightenment gave us the Bill of Rights.

[heart]

And religion and romanticism are the enemies of the Enlightenment.

The Enlightenment spawned the violence of the French Revolution. People reacted by going towards Romaniticism. There's no perfect pancea.


Subconsciously you knew this already victor, so why did you start this thread? :devil:

And yes, you've already said that you feel Austrailia had the perfect response to the Revolutionary Era. Good for you. You're not American. Woohoo. You've no further need for any personality development beynd that, that's your whole sense of self-worth, where you were born. :rolleyes:

[Victor]

Doesn't it seem terribly ironic to you that the enlightened thinkers would erect a statue of a goddess to represent reason?

The Statue of Liberty is a direct copy of the statue, the Goddess of Reason, that was installed in Notre Dame Cathedral, Paris, France.

And the Statue of Liberty was a gift to you by the French Enlightenment.

The name, Statue of Liberty, means freedom.

And she is a direct, exact copy of the Goddess of Reason in France.

So the one thing that represents you to the world embodies Reason and Freedom.

And Reason and Freedom are the Enlightenment.

So loyal Americans have an interest in defending the values of the Enlightenment along with loyal Australians whose very country was founded by the Scottish and English Enlightenment.

[heart]

Reason never exists in this world without feeling because of the way humans are made. To ignore either is to court disaster, but people never learn, they always want to swing absolute in one direction or the other. There's value in both the Age of Reason and the Age of Romance and there are dangers in both as well. Better to strike a balance.

[Magic Poriferan]

Actually, my own mental dictionary divides it into Thinking and Feeling, while Reasoning is the word I assigned for rationale that uses both. :)

I think Feeling is inate to Reasoning.

[heart]

Actually, my own mental dictionary divides it into Thinking and Feeling, while Reasoning is the word I assigned for rationale that uses both. :)

I think Feeling is inate to Reasoning.

I think the Philosophes used the Reason verses Sentiment jargon.

Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson are generally considered to be part of the Philosophes of the Enlightenment.

[Victor]

Reason never exists in this world without feeling because of the way humans are made. To ignore either is to court disaster, but people never learn, they always want to swing absolute in one direction or the other. There's value in both the Age of Reason and the Age of Romance and there are dangers in both as well. Better to strike a balance.

Our present day problem is that a tribal and totalitarian religion has declared war against us.

And they use our Romanticism against us.

In particular they use our moral relativism against us.

For historical reasons they never went through the Enlightenment, and they reject Enlightenment values such as the separation of Church and State, the equality of women and men, as well as freedom of speech.

And they reject any rational criticism of their holy book. Such criticism is not only seen as offensive but blasphemous. And the ordained penalty for such a blasphemous offense is death.

And they put this death penalty into practice. For instance they slaughtered Theo van Gogh in front of his home for criticising their holy book.

And with a knife they pinned a manifesto and a threat to the chest of the slaughtered Theo.

In this threat they promised to kill Ayaan Hirsi Ali for the same offense, as well as apostasy.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is in Australia as I write under the strictest security to guard her life.

She is a brave, intelligent and charming women and a true heroine of our time.

She has written a number of excellent books which I highly recommend.

In particular she enjoins us to defend the values of the Enlightenment against barbarism.

[heart]

Nothing you've just said negates the idea that a balance of reason and romanticism is something to strive for.

Any philosophy can be bastardized and used for nefarious ends.

[Victor]

Nothing you've just said negates the idea that a balance of reason and romanticism is something to strive for.

Any philosophy can be bastardized and used for nefarious ends.

Quite the contrary.

Jean Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778) was the first to romanticise tribalism with his, "Noble Savage".

And such romanticism has been applied to tribal aborigines in Australia with the almost universal result of child sexual abuse and the murder of aboriginal women by aboriginal men.

The situation is so bad we have been forced to send in the army, police and medical workers as well as spending many billions of dollars.

Romanticism is merely to make Westerners feel good while destroying the lives of aboriginal children and their mothers.

[Magic Poriferan]

Romanticism is merely to make Westerners feel good while destroying the lives of aboriginal children and their mothers.

Wow. That is as over-the-top as it gets.

I also come back to the fact that "Enlightened" thinking created a supposedly scientific basis for racial and cultural supremacy, as well as eugenics for dealing with such "problems" as inferior genetics.

[heart]

I don't know enough about Austrialian aborigines to say if your claims about their culture are true or if they were always true. If true, how much is a result of the assualt on their culture and family structure? Was it always true?

Civilization can be looked at and negatives picked out of it as well. Children are still abused and molested in civilized countries and the system of civilized society manipluated and used to get away with it. There are psychopaths and sick people in every culture.


I also come back to the fact that "Enlightened" thinking created a supposedly scientific basis for racial and cultural supremacy, as well as eugenics for dealing with such "problems" as inferior genetics.

Yes, absolutely, the hierarchies of Darwinistic evolution used to justify eugenics and eventually ethnic cleansing etc. Anything can be used to justify evil.

[heart]

If you are over the age of consent in your country, do a search on "Kinsey's Pedophiles" and see what "reason" and science can be used to enact on children.

[Victor]

Wow. That is as over-the-top as it gets.


Unfortunately is it not over the top, it is reality. You can read any number of Australian Government reports which describe the present situation in detail.

But you only need to read Australian newspapers to know the situation is dire.

And to know that the policy of Rousseauean Romanticism is responsible.

[Magic Poriferan]

And to know that the policy of Rousseauean Romanticism is responsible.

How?

[heart]

Unfortunately is it not over the top, it is reality. You can read any number of Australian Government reports which describe the present situation in detail.

But you only need to read Australian newspapers to know the situation is dire.

And to know that the policy of Rousseauean Romanticism is responsible.

Rousseau was not the only person who influenced the Romantic Age, just as Voltaire wasn't the only Philosophe.

[Victor]

I also come back to the fact that "Enlightened" thinking created a supposedly scientific basis for racial and cultural supremacy, as well as eugenics for dealing with such "problems" as inferior genetics.

Eugenics is pseudo science. There is no scientific basis for eugenics. DNA has shown us we are all one race from a common ancestor.

Racism is far older than the Enlightenment.

The Enlightenment gave us freedom and reason.

The Enlightenment gave us equality.

The Enlightenment has seen off totalitarian regimes such as Communism and Nazism and we will see off totalitarian Islam but it will be a long struggle.

[Victor]

Rousseau was not the only person who influenced the Romantic Age, just as Voltaire wasn't the only Philosophe.

Sure, but he was the first and perhaps the most famous and the most quoted.

[heart]

Sure, but he was the first and perhaps the most famous and the most quoted.

Sure, if we're talking strictly of Freshmen.

[Victor]

Sure, if we're talking strictly of Freshmen.

Well, I am a Freshman. But we call them Undergraduates.

But perhaps it should be Freshpersons.

And so far no one has called me fresh.

[Magic Poriferan]

Eugenics is pseudo science. There is no scientific basis for eugenics. DNA has shown us we are all one race from a common ancestor.

I can actually debate the accuracy of some of those points, but anyway, saying that it's "pseudo science" doesn't refute its connection to the enlightenment.


Racism is far older than the Enlightenment.

That clearly misses the point. The point is that the enligthetnment gave entirely new, and arguably more deadly strength to racism. The enlightenment fueled genocide.


The Enlightenment gave us freedom and reason.

The Enlightenment gave us equality.


Empty words, too often repeated.


The Enlightenment has seen off totalitarian regimes such as Communism and Nazism and we will see off totalitarian Islam but it will be a long struggle.

The enlightenment was extremely inspirational to Communism. Many Communist thinkers were "Englightened". Now, it is true that the Nazis were total romantics in their own sick way, but they did defend their cause with a lot of Enlightenment based ideas... like the Eugenics I was talking about.

[heart]

Eugenics is pseudo science. There is no scientific basis for eugenics. DNA has shown us we are all one race from a common ancestor.

Racism is far older than the Enlightenment.

The Enlightenment gave us freedom and reason.

The Enlightenment gave us equality.

The Enlightenment has seen off totalitarian regimes such as Communism and Nazism and we will see off totalitarian Islam but it will be a long struggle.


1. I am now consfused about your opinions. You said the USA has probelms because they believe too much in equality. (See below)

2. Even though Eugenics can be said to be a false science, it still uses the foil of science and reason to justify itself. Same can be said of those who use Romaniticism to justify their ends.

I am not suggesting you are all equal. In fact I am quoting Alexis de Tocqueville who visited your great country and described its organising principal as Equality.

Of course there are competing values such as Excellence. So you play off Excellence against Equality, but Equality still remains your prime value.

And looking at it from a distance, it is a mono-value.

Fish didn't discover water and you are a fish in the water of your own culture. That is why you are short sighted to dismiss those who can see the water you swim in. However we know you have been doing this from the very beginning and so it will continue.

Your overall problem is interesting but not very important - you want not only power but you want to be loved as well - yet you walk all over the mores and sensibilities of those you control - and taking into account economic control, military control and cultural control, you control most of the world. And you wonder aloud, "Why do they hate us?".

Rome made a point of respecting the mores of those they controlled. And Britain also respected the mores of those they controlled. But you seem to have a blind spot.

But it is more comic than tragic.


He is actually quite interesting. What is most interesting is that he found you understandable whereas he didn't find the British understandable.

He found you understandable because you are organised around one central principle whereas the British do not have one central organising principle. So Alexis could understand you and predict your future. But he could not predict where the British would go.

And you ask me, Piranha, what is your organising principle - should I tell you? Why not.

It is oddly enough Equality. And once you understand this everything else falls into place.

So one might say you are one dimensional with all the strength that implies of single purpose and the concentration of all your energies into one direction. And this is what we see.

Of course being one dimensional has its weaknesses as well such as a blindness to alternatives, a certain emotional flatness and oddly enough an attenuated sense of humour.

Unfortunately Alexis did not turn his attention to Oz. The closest we have is a visit from D.H.Lawrence and he described us, quite accurately, as lazy authoritarians. He said he wasn't worried about Fascism in Oz as we were too lazy to make it work.

And so we remain today - the trains run on time, you can drink the water and our streets are safe and we treat it all with laconic humour.

Thank heavens for the Yanks - you give us sense of direction and that is why we have not one but three international treaties with you - a Military Treaty, a Land Treaty and an Economic Treaty.

Each Treaty is working quite well and we are happy with you.

[Victor]

I can actually debate the accuracy of some of those points, but anyway, saying that it's "pseudo science" doesn't refute its connection to the enlightenment.

That clearly misses the point. The point is that the enligthetnment gave entirely new, and arguably more deadly strength to racism. The enlightenment fueled genocide.

Empty words, too often repeated.

The enlightenment was extremely inspirational to Communism. Many Communist thinkers were "Englightened". Now, it is true that the Nazis were total romantics in their own sick way, but they did defend their cause with a lot of Enlightenment based ideas... like the Eugenics I was talking about.

This is just popular prejudice. It is conventional wisdom.

I don't think you understand the Enlightenment, Communism, Nazism, Eugenics or Islam.

And certainly, Reason, Freedom and Equality are real for me and for Western Civilization.

[heart]

And certainly, Reason, Freedom and Equality are real for me and for Western Civilization.

This is a simplex view. There are many living within western civilization who don't enjoy true freedom and/or equality.

[Victor]

2. Even though Eugenics can be said to be a false science, it still uses the foil of science and reason to justify itself. Same can be said of those who use Romanticism to justify their ends.

Sure, pseudo science does use science as foil to justify itself.

The problem with Romanticism is that it is opposed to the Enlightenment.

And unfortunately today, barbarism is also opposed to the Enlightenment.

And barbarism is using our tradition of Romanticism against us.

[Magic Poriferan]

Oy.

Most of Victor's argument is based on a language and a logic system all his own, which has not been thoroughly explained to anyone else, and may never be.

I don't know about you heart, but I was just taking this as an exercise. Now that I see where this problem goes, I think I'm done with this. If you would like to continue with him, just keep in mind how impenetrable he is.

[heart]

You feel that civilization always trumps native populations in morality and freedom and equality for its members?

It was civilzation that brought in the priestcraft and control over people through such measures.

[Victor]

This is a simplex view. There are many living within western civilization who don't enjoy true freedom and/or equality.

Sure, but we are working toward it.

Already we have made great strides.

In 1833 The House of Commons abolished the institution of slavery for the first time in human history.

And in the 20th Century women achieved their emancipation.

And in 1948 we passed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

And in the last few decades the laws against child sexual abuse have been enforced in the West.

Modern economics have for the first time in human history abolished scarcity in the West.

Liberal Democracy has succeeded in limiting power - see your Constitution and mine.

And science is a roaring success.

The Enlightenment has come a long way and we have a long way to go particularly in some non-Western countries.

"The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."

- your own Robert Frost.

[heart]

In 1833 The House of Commons abolished the institution of slavery for the first time in human history.



1. Frost is a Romantic! So why are you spreading such evil poison here? :devil:

2. Slavery is being re-created with the privately-owned prison industrial system.

That's just one example.

[Victor]

Oy.

Most of Victor's argument is based on a language and a logic system all his own, which has not been thoroughly explained to anyone else, and may never be.

I don't know about you heart, but I was just taking this as an exercise. Now that I see where this problem goes, I think I'm done with this. If you would like to continue with him, just keep in mind how impenetrable he is.

You know, I like to read books that I don't quite understand.

It's as though there is a part of my brain that is tickled by new ideas.

And when I play tennis, I like to play with someone who is slightly better than me.

Perhaps you could think of me as a book you don't quite understand.

[Victor]

1. Frost is a Romantic! So why are you spreading such evil poison here? :devil:


It's true, the first line I quoted is Romantic -

"The woods are lovely, dark and deep,"

But he doesn't allow himself to fall into the sleep of Romanticism, he remains awake to keep his promises -

"But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."

He remains awake to keep the promise of the Enlightenment.

[heart]

It's true, the first line I quoted is Romantic -

"The woods are lovely, dark and deep,"

But he doesn't allow himself to fall into the sleep of Romanticism, he remains awake to keep his promises -

"But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."

He remains awake to keep the promise of the Enlightenment.

Frost believed that nature and its cycles are so ingrained in humans that we'll never rise above it and that's about as anti-Enlightenment (and anti-transcentalism) as a person can get and I don't care what you "feel" he is saying, you are spreading Romanticism when you quote him and according to your own philosophy that makes you a helper to the barbaric agenda.

[Sunshine]

And religion and romanticism are the enemies of the Enlightenment.

BlueWing?

[Victor]

2. Slavery is being re-created with the privately-owned prison industrial system.

I am referring to the Institution of Slavey that was abolished for the first time by the House of Commons.

Here we have laws against slavey and recently we have had a successful prosecution for slavery.

So although we don't have the Institution of Slavey, slavery still occurs and we prosecute it vigourously.

And yes slavey still exists in Gulags and Work Camps and in trafficking sex slaves.

I don't know of any Institutional Slavery even in the Sudan.

After the House of Commons abolished the Institution of Slavery, the Royal Navy was sent out into the Atlantic with orders to sink any of your ships trafficking in slavery. And you were sensible enough to stop.

Perhaps you remembered we burnt the White House to the ground in our last encounter and thought we might do the same with your ships.

[Victor]

Frost believed that nature and its cycles are so ingrained in humans that we'll never rise above it and that's about as anti-Enlightenment (and anti-transcentalism) as a person can get and I don't care what you "feel" he is saying, you are spreading Romanticism when you quote him and according to your own philosophy that makes you a helper to the barbaric agenda.

It's true I am deeply affected by the Romantic Movement.

I was so affected I became a hippy.

You remember, there were three types of hippie - the political hippy, the drug hippy and the mystical hippy. I was a mystical hippy.

But I was awakened from my sleep of Romanticism by the destruction of the Twin Towers.

And I struggle to stay awake to keep the promises of the Enlightenment.

And I am in excellent company, along with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who is visiting us at the moment.

[heart]

Here we have laws against slavey and recently we have had a successful prosecution for slavery.

So although we don't have the Institution of Slavey, slavery still occurs and we prosecute it vigourously.

Read about the Prison privatization in your own country. Use both your reason and your feeling, see what's in the works there.

Oh yeah, I forgot, the bad guy always wears a black hat and the good guy a white one...


Perhaps you remembered we burnt the White House to the ground in our last encounter and thought we might do the same with your ships.


1. The British burned the first White House, not the Australians. Have you changed your country then?

2. As you have said before a person is not seperable from the mass collective of their country, are you speaking for Australia and declaring war on the USA?

[heart]

It's true I am deeply affected by the Romantic Movement.

I was so affected I became a hippy.

You remember, there were three types of hippie - the political hippy, the drug hippy and the mystical hippy. I was a mystical hippy.

But I was awakened from my sleep of Romanticism by the destruction of the Twin Towers.

And I struggle to stay awake to keep the promises of the Enlightenment.

And I am in excellent company, along with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who is visiting us at the moment.

You live a life based on fear of terrorism? But we lived in a world of terror and fear all along, way before September 11, 2001.

Why is it always about extremism? I am not talking about being a hippy. I was suggesting balance between reason and feeling because as humans, we cannot escape our feeling and if we try to deny it, then it goes into shadow and can erupt in violent ventings. So it's better to gain a balance between the two and throw out neither the Enlightenment nor the Romantic age.

[Victor]

1. The British burned the first White House, not the Australians. Have you changed your country then?


C'mon, we are a member of the British Commonwealth. We loved being part of the British Empire. Our Queen, Elizabeth, is British. All our institutions are British and we beat the British at cricket. And we share a similar sense of humour.

And on top of all that we had a referendum in 1999 asking whether we wished to keep our Queen, Elizabeth. And all of the country voted to keep the Queen, except for one small territory.

[Victor]

....are you....declaring war on the USA?

I wouldn't try it kid. You probably don't know but we have our military officers embeded in the highest echelons of the Pentagon. So if you make any move, we will be the first to know.

[heart]

I wouldn't try it kid. You probably don't know but we have our military officers embeded in the highest echelons of the Pentagon. So if you make any move, we will be the first to know.

First off, thank you for calling me "kid". :D

Second, you are the one declaring war, not me.

[Victor]

Second, you are the one declaring war, not me.

Let's be rational about this. We have a military of 25,000 members to defend the Continent of Australia and half the Continent of Antarctica, together with Sovereign Seas of an even larger area.

Most of our military are on peace keeping missions across the globe, together with some fighting in Afganistan.

Just one of your aircraft carriers could knock out our entire airforce.

So do you really think this mouse will roar?

[heart]

Let's be rational about this. We have a military of 25,000 members to defend the Continent of Australia and half the Continent of Antarctica, together with Sovereign Seas of an even larger area.

Most of our military are on peace keeping missions across the globe, together with some fighting in Afganistan.

Just one of your aircraft carriers could knock out our entire airforce.

So do you really think this mouse will roar?

I don't think anything about it, you were the one saying you would fire on US ships. :D

[Edahn]

When are you two going to make out already? I can't stand all this foreplay. It's like watching scrambled porn...enough to get you wondering, but always unsatisfying.

[Victor]

I don't think anything about it, you were the one saying you would fire on US ships. :D

I was talking about the nineteenth century. This is the twenty-first century.

[Victor]

When are you two going to make out already? I can't stand all this foreplay. It's like watching scrambled porn...enough to get you wondering, but always unsatisfying.

I am wondering as well. But I think it is conflict that serves a purpose. I don't know what that purpose is. But I suspect it is purely defensive.

But what I don't know is what it is defending. I suspect the defender doesn't know what they are defending.

But it is a very strong defence. It has the energy to keep on going and going.

And this is what you would expect. Imagine that part of you is trying to speak, but you can't listen. But that part has suffered so much, it will never give up. And it pervades everything you do and say but is invisible.

It sounds to me like ressentiment which is also all pervasive and invisible and affects everything you do and say, from the tone of your voice to the expression on your face, to the very thoughts you have. And desperately seeks to be heard, not by speaking, but by acting out.

So the thing to do is not to listen to what we are saying but watch what we are doing. And that is just what you are doing, Edahn.