What does an unhealthy ISFJ look like?

[chatoyer]

Are they particularly skilled at guilt trips? Underhanded manipulation?

What are their defenses and tactics of choice when they want attention, control, etc.?

thanks!

[Jennifer]

Are they particularly skilled at guilt trips? Underhanded manipulation?

What are their defenses and tactics of choice when they want attention, control, etc.? thanks!


Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
Can keep record of wrongs easily
Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)


Those are the things I generally have experienced.

[chatoyer]

Example of a subtle guilt trip? Is it verbal? Or are they more busy, showing how industrious they are despite their fatigue, like a nonverbal complaint? Do they seem negative and overwhelmed?

Are they more prone to codependency?

[Jennifer]

Example of a subtle guilt trip? Is it verbal? Or are they more busy, showing how industrious they are despite their fatigue, like a nonverbal complaint? Do they seem negative and overwhelmed?

Are they more prone to codependency?

Well, remember everyone is different, even within a particular MBTI type. Different strategies sometimes are favored based on past experience(s).

Well, for example, they tend to go for comments or actions that insinuate the other person isn't doing their share or is irresponsible (while the ISFJ is responsible). Sometimes it's even a little more direct: "It would be nice sometimes if I didn't have to always do everything around here."

I think one thing to keep in mind is that usually the ISFJ is trying to be perfect and trying NOT to have relational needs (they like to give, give, give, without directly asking, because they don't want to be a burden or impose); but inside they will feel a lot of resentment if they feel like the other person is taking advantage of them and they are doing. There is a lot of guilt if they are not able to perfectly carry out their self-assigned responsibilities.

So usually it's not that they are trying to be cruel or manipulative (although anyone can be), often it seems to be the "I'm trying so hard to do everything right and be responsible, but it's not working and I'm really upset inside... yet the perfect person does not complain about their responsibilities so i can't say anything.")

There does tend to be some codependency things, depending on the relational expectations they were brought up with. And the more introverted the ISFJ is, the more their world tends to revolve around just a few people... which often isn't fair to those people, since the ISFJ might get clingy or want a lot of their time and energy, more than they have to give. If it's someone like a spouse or a child or some other relationship with predefined expectations, it's very easy to judge the other partner as deficient if they are not following the "rules" as the ISFJ has learned them: "You are my spouse, therefore you should be making me feel loved or <whatever else>."

I'd say that the tendency to give based on the ISFJ's scrupulous need to be responsible (rather than what the partner deserves/reciprocates), plus the ISFJ's tendency to have just a few really really close relationships, can lead them to be codependent more than some other types. They want the closeness, and they can easily be taken advantage of. :(

[Edahn]

http://www.mitzenmacher.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/MU026_FULL_BODY_CAST1.jpg

[Usehername]

*overwhelmed by emotions they refuse to admit even exist (Fe does not help out Si in self-preservation mode, meaning Si gets all distorted)

*the world is against them (it's not that they don't trust you, it's that they don't trust the world, so the world is going to pwn you no matter what you do). xSxJ doomsday beliefs at their worst.

*works self day in and day out with no breaks for incredibly unreasonable amounts of time, until their bodies give out and they get sick. Then, the unhealthy ISFJ puts on guilt trips that everyone else didn't kick in to try to fight the world as hard as they did while the ISFJ was out of commission.

*never asks for help, and takes it very personally that you didn't rescue them and join in their crusade against the world

[Uberfuhrer]

http://www.mitzenmacher.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/MU026_FULL_BODY_CAST1.jpg

You and I actually share a similar sense of humor.

[chatoyer]

:smile: @ photo

I forget I'm talking to a bunch of NTs, precision in my question!!!

(How does an unhealthy ISFJ behave??!!)

[quietgirl]

Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
Can keep record of wrongs easily
Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)


Those are the things I generally have experienced.

Very true. They also can get VERY stubborn and generally uncooperative. Also, they can get very critical of others when the criticism should be pointed inwards. I can tell my boyfriend's starting to do this when I bring up a problem I have with something he did or said and he immediately starts reciting a list of every single thing I've ever done to hurt him. He's also quick to point out anything he can think of that would shift the blame to me. When it gets to that point, I just leave the room or the apartment until he calms down - and when I get back, he always apologizes and feels terrible about his behavior.

I've found the best way to deal with these behaviors is simply by giving the ISFJ some space to calm the heck down. There are issues in my relationship with an ISFJ that have had to be settled weeks after the fact because my boyfriend's stress/depression level was so high that he started exhibiting these behaviors.

My boyfriend responds positively when I distance myself because he's acting out of line. It's how I demand respect and works a lot better than going on an emotional rant about how I deserve respect. Simply talking to him when he's depressed or stressed doesn't get much accomplished. He needs to see consequences of his actions when he's all caught up in his "stubborn martyr mode". Usually once the consequences are laid out in front of him, he will not cross the line again. Since both of us stopped putting up with destructive behavior from each other (I have my own set of unhealthy behaviors), our relationship's gotten a million times better.

[quietgirl]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that usually the ISFJ is trying to be perfect and trying NOT to have relational needs (they like to give, give, give, without directly asking, because they don't want to be a burden or impose); but inside they will feel a lot of resentment if they feel like the other person is taking advantage of them and they are doing. There is a lot of guilt if they are not able to perfectly carry out their self-assigned responsibilities.

So usually it's not that they are trying to be cruel or manipulative (although anyone can be), often it seems to be the "I'm trying so hard to do everything right and be responsible, but it's not working and I'm really upset inside... yet the perfect person does not complain about their responsibilities so i can't say anything.")



Jennifer's commented reminded me of an example...

There was a situation in my relationship where my ISFJ boyfriend had an ex girlfriend who tried to interfere with our relationship. He dealt with the situation in his own way, but in my eyes, that way was not very effective as she still continued to call us often. He ended up getting very upset with ME because he was not responding to her whatsoever and felt as though the way he handled the situation was the right way. He very much resented my opinion that more needed to be done because he honestly felt he had done everything he can and that he had done it with the utmost respect for me & the relationship. He kept a lot of this inside and it ultimately surfaced in unhealthy ISFJ behaviors directed towards me because in his mind, I didn't see that he had done everything he possibly could do and that made him feel unappreciated.

[Sling]

Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
Can keep record of wrongs easily
Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)


Those are the things I generally have experienced.

I agree with this.

Sometimes it seems they are more like problem-relishers rather than problem-solvers, dwelling on every aspect of misery, inconvenience, and strife of the situation("We're all going to die..and it's your fault!!", rather than "How did this happen, and what can we do to fix it").

It's very hard to make them happy when they are in this mood. I think arguments for them isn't so much about figuring out a problem or making a point as it is about them indirectly asking for some kind of emotional support(no idea what that would be, probably differs from person to person). This paragraph is purely speculative, and I might be wrong.

If you deal with them calmly and logically address the problem like a T would, they won't accept they are wrong. Instead, they will go outside and try to undo the lugnuts on their tire with their teeth to keep themselves in a frustrated and determined despair while they contemplate their next campaign. Their ability to dodge reasoning like Neo dodges bullets, and to re-introduce even the most overinflated of insignificant events that happened years ago, allows them to have epic arguments. Much like a D&D game. As I said before, their arguing isn't always means to an end as it is with T's, but rather a request for emotional fulfillment of some sort.

Thus arguing will get you nowhere with them. Attack the root of the flame, rather than the flames themselves. In fire theory, a fire needs 3 things to burn. Fuel, oxygen, and heat. So, consider fuel as an idea or object that they can obsess over. You can't really cut these off with reasoning, as they will fabricate more. Heat could represent the emotions that react with the fuel. That is where you need to address them. You could cut off their oxygen supply, but that could cause brain damage, and will cause the fire to explode into an even more violent inferno when the oxygen is reintroduced to the heat and fuel. Trust me here. My dad tried it. It only got him arrested, and then the argument continued over the police telephone.

Unhealthy ISFJ=self defeating to the max.

I think you can add general neurosis to the list as well.

No need to thank me here. Just be appreciative of the misfortune of my having an intimate knowledge of unhealthy ISFJ's. :p

[InaF3157]

I think arguments for them isn't so much about figuring out a problem or making a point as it is about them indirectly asking for some kind of emotional support(no idea what that would be, probably differs from person to person). This paragraph is purely speculative, and I might be wrong.

If you deal with them calmly and logically address the problem like a T would, they won't accept they are wrong. Instead, they will go outside and try to undo the lugnuts on their tire with their teeth to keep themselves in a frustrated and determined despair while they contemplate their next campaign.

Maybe they are most frustrated that you start with the proposition that they are wrong and will be brought over to see why they are wrong if you apply your trusty logic and calm. Then the problem isn't what irked them in the first place, but your cool, implacable assuredness that they are the one with the problem.

[Sling]

Maybe they are most frustrated that you start with the proposition that they are wrong and will be brought over to see why they are wrong if you apply your trusty logic and calm. Then the problem isn't what irked them in the first place, but your cool, implacable assuredness that they are the one with the problem.


Nah, I don't think that is how they operate. I don't think mental input has any effect on them when they are in this state, rational or otherwise.

In other words, what you are saying and what they want to hear might affect totally different mental circuits.

If you use rationality, part of their brain will filter it out and discard it long before you decide to process it. If you throw back heated irrationality, it is like dumping some kernels into a bowl of already cooking popcorn.

[InaF3157]

I can see what your ISFJ has to contend with :smile:

[Sling]

I can see what your ISFJ has to contend with :smile:

Haha. Contention is the wrong concept. Rather than try to hit back, you have to deflect her arm with one hand, and inject her in her then exposed neck with the other. I mean metaphorically speaking...Or do I.;)

[InaF3157]

:shock:
::
:run:

[quietgirl]

Sling's right about the self defeating nature and worthless arguing. Honestly? There's no use arguing when an ISFJ is at an unhealthy state because it not only will be fruitless, but it will also come off as attacking - especially if you appear "cold". As an NF, I'd feel the same way if someone came at me trying to solve my emotional problem with cold hard logic.

I find figuring out the root of the problem and supporting them through it works best. A lot of what is emotionally spilling out at the time an ISFJ explodes is build up from not expressing the problem in the first place. I know my boyfriend will rant & rave about everything related or unrelated to the problem and be generally inconsolable. ISFJ's are fairly dependent beings and I have learned that letting them be dependent on you for support actually helps them build their own confidence and become more independently confident.

The best solution I've found to the problem is to weed through the complaining to figure out the actual problem and then figure out a workable solution. For example, my boyfriend has a huge lack of self confidence. It affects EVERYTHING he does and when he's really down on himself or in a position where he needs to have confidence, he starts to turn into an unhealthy ISFJ. When he starts the unhealthy behavior, I don't even bother arguing and I don't let him blame me. Instead, I start helping him build his confidence. When he had a lot of job interviews, I would drive him and give him tons of verbal support. After the interview, I'd let him tell me all about it & let him know that he did a great job. I helped him get back into school so he could continue to do a career that he enjoyed & I am always there to help him study the subjects where he struggles. I let him know when I'm proud of him and I let him know his good qualities when he's beating himself up over the bad. It really does help deter the unhealthy behaviors and helps him to push forward & do more things independently.

[Hmm]

Sling, maybe you should try dating NT's to relieve yourself of this problem.

[Fuent]

My mom is an ISFJ and let me tell you... She's such a nice lady but for some reason she annoys me sooooooooooooooooo much. Wants to know so many details. I feel like she's trying to trap me but she says that it's because she's just worried. Either way it's really annoying.

[Pavilion]

My mom is an ISFJ and let me tell you... She's such a nice lady but for some reason she annoys me sooooooooooooooooo much. Wants to know so many details. I feel like she's trying to trap me but she says that it's because she's just worried. Either way it's really annoying.
Heh, I'm in the same boat. Every time a new friend of mine meets my mom they always tell me "Your mom is so nice/awesome/cool/etc.". My typical response is one of heavily reluctant agreement and in the cases when the heavy reluctance doesn't go unnoticed I have to explain that while don't necessarily disagree with them, I have to put annoying at the top of my list of adjectives that describe her.

She always has to finish her thoughts even when it's been made perfectly clear that she need not go on, when I'm having conversations with her she always spouts off the same redundant things over and over again, she doesn't seem to realize when conversations are over and so I'm stuck listening to a broken record until I leave the room (and she talks to herself so I might still hear her when she wanders by afterwards - her words are like the drops in that form of torture where the victim has drops of water falling on there head constantly until it drives them insane), she's constantly interrupting me when I'm alone and thinking (in my prime) and tells me that she might as well do it then because I never want to talk anyways (which is perfectly true when the subject involves how she wants me to get this stain out of my shirt or how she stumbled upon such a great deal on peanut butter, etc.), she'll knock but won't wait for a response and just barge in so she can finish her repetitive tasks without any concern for my privacy, she's always asking my opinion but completely ignores me when I answer her and immediately follows up my response with her own opinion....I could go on and on.

[wordvarc]

Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
Can keep record of wrongs easily
Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)


Those are the things I generally have experienced.

Well put.

[Mort Belfry]

What does an unhealthy ISFJ look like?

Like a mongoose digesting a car battery.

[zago]

Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
Can keep record of wrongs easily
Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)


Those are the things I generally have experienced.

Extremely well-put. You must know an ISFJ like this too :)

[Angry Ayrab]

My mom is an ISFJ, they are amazing people.

I just don't get the following:

1. How can you live with 8 males in a house and put up with their nasty slobbiness, continue to clean every day even when you are sick and are on so many pain killers to numb your back and all hell is going on around you.

2. How can you just put up with doing shit for people for so long, she ironed and washed my clothes, cooked my food, always put my shit where I can find it and did it for all my brothers and my dad for so effing long.

3. When you are pissed about something and say it 20 times, how do you manage to repeat it for the next three hours without tyring?

[ZiL]

3. When you are pissed about something and say it 20 times, how do you manage to repeat it for the next three hours without tyring?


I will second that inquiry! My mom in an ISFJ as well, and man, when she unleashes all of her pent up feelings it is like a 5 hour dip in the freezing-cold swimming pool of depression. She's been annoyed with her boss lately, and it seems that for 3 or 4 months now, every night devolves into a bitching session about "why do they hate me so much to give me this or that task." She definitely resents not being appreciated. And it's impossible to argue with her without her framing you as the bad guy, shifting the attention away from the issue at hand to a "why are you being so mean to me" situation. I love my mom and she does so much for me, but when things go sour it's absolutely infuriating because it's as if we're in separate communication universes.

One of my guy friends is ISFJ as well. When he is in a bad mood he will passively-aggressively guilt trip you to no end. And he'll just be generally mean.

[sanveane]

Does anyone, esp any ISFJs, have any helpful tips for how I would best interact with an unhealthy ISFJ? I have someone in my life who is really unhealthy and have to see her quite regularly.

She is amongst other things:
- Extremely perfectionistic, almost to the point of it being a sickness imo (this actually makes me feel for her and it's why I want to do something to improve our relationship).
- Martyr complex
- Very little to no sympathy for anyone else, much sympathy for herself
- Thinks people are "out to get her" when they are not
- Dismissive of others whose lifestyle isn't in tune with hers
- Criticism makes her cry
- Self-righteous
- Extremely concerned with the appearance of things
- Extreme frustration and anger always just below the surface, which she usually expresses by crying

How do I reach the mellow side of her, if that's even what I should be doing? She takes any disagreement as a personal affront, so it's pretty hard to reason with her when she's being 'judgemental'.

Then after all of the above she will turn around and do something wonderful for you... and it feels like total manipulation.

EDIT: I should add that Jennifer's list of things she has experienced holds true for her as well.

[Anja]

I had lunch with one a couple of weeks ago.

When we requested to sit in a certain area, the greeter's response was one of irritation.

I reworded my preference to a tad more firmness and he reluctantly led us to our chosen table.

She smiled through the whole interaction and I thought she hadn't even noticed the little clash there.

A week or so later I overheard her talking about it to someone else and she was going on about how rude he was and she was pretty offended by the whole little interchange!

Surprised me.

[ArbiterDewey]

I read through this thread, and, after realizing I had nothing to contribute, noticed that no other ISTJs had posted here either...

Fun :D

[Hmm]

I had lunch with one a couple of weeks ago.

When we requested to sit in a certain area, the greeter's response was one of irritation.

I reworded my preference to a tad more firmness and he reluctantly led us to our chosen table.

She smiled through the whole interaction and I thought she hadn't even noticed the little clash there.

A week or so later I overheard her talking about it to someone else and she was going on about how rude he was and she was pretty offended by the whole little interchange!

Surprised me.

Ahahaha!

[BerberElla]

Alot of this sounds like my ISFJ friend, the self sacrificing, refusing to speak up when people are taking advantage, stuff like that.

However the most unhealthy thing I have seen is that she is stuck in the past, continuously mourning a long forgotten past that is never coming back, and continuing to be a martyr to a love long buried. (one that from my understanding did not break down completely due to her, and yet she takes 100% of the blame onto herself)

I can get stuck in the past but I can make myself bounce out by reminding myself that nothing will ever turn back time, I feel that whenever I am trying to lift her out of that negative state or rememberence I am embarking on an impossible task because absolutely nothing I have ever said has ever helped her let go of that.

Also she is extremely paranoid about being cheated on, it consumes her current relationship. She is sure that he will cheat, she has plenty of reason to believe this of course but her attitude is to remain the nice one, to not realy say anything, to continue to self sacrifice and take care of all his little needs, to keep him fed and content, so that when he does cheat (no way will he not as far as she is concerned) she can then be the "nice one" and in no way to blame for the break up of the relationship.

[Anja]

I was glad to read your post, BerberElla, because I think that's what I was seeing and trying to verbalize.

Obviously in her conversation with this other person my ISFJ was extremely invested in getting to sit where we wanted, but she gave no outward sign in the presence of the greeter.

For a matter of fact I felt as though she was observing me being assertive with him with some discomfort or even disapproval.

Then to carry on like that nearly two weeks later made me wonder why she was still carrying that little molehill around with her. There had been no problem at all from my perspective.

I asked for what we wanted.

Was put off
Asked again.
Got it.

All taken care of.

I wondered if she had trouble asking for what she needed/wanted.

Then there is that carrying the past around with her in a troubled manner. Oh dear.

[Hmm]

^ she could have been just mirroring you after the fact and not really cared when it happened.

[Anja]

I suppose that's a possibility, Hmm.

So then what would that be all about?

Trying on a new persona?

Stewing about a perceived offense - see that's how I interpreted it.

Lacking in immediacy?

Tell me more about how you see it?

[Hmm]

Trying on a new persona?

I would call it delayed empathizing. Which I guess is annoying still.

[Hmm]

Okay, it seems like I'm currently the only active ISFJ on this forum so forgive me if I can't get to all of you who have problems with ISFJ's but I'll try.

Admittedly, a lot of the stuff in this thread I can't relate to.

[Anja]

Well, gee. Looking at it that way makes it kind of a left-handed compliment!

But I didn't have that vociferous affect going on. Heh.

I want to say something about "annoying."

I'd want to look at it more as an area that could use improvement in the health department. It's sometimes difficult but I like to look at personal "flaws" as undeveloped areas and try to keep the judgement factor out.

With varying degrees of success. . .

[Anja]

Just missed your last post. You are the only one!

Some courage to face this one, brave Girl.

Glad you don't relate to them all!

[Hmm]

Also she is extremely paranoid about being cheated on, it consumes her current relationship. She is sure that he will cheat, she has plenty of reason to believe this of course but her attitude is to remain the nice one, to not realy say anything, to continue to self sacrifice and take care of all his little needs, to keep him fed and content, so that when he does cheat (no way will he not as far as she is concerned) she can then be the "nice one" and in no way to blame for the break up of the relationship.


First off, let me just say that there is nothing wrong with her being nice to the guy she is with now if he is being nice to her as well. But more importantly, regardless of type, when a person has been cheated on, it takes them a while to get over that psychologically. If your friend likes the guy she is with and he continues to be faithful to her, eventually she will see it for what it is and stop being so paranoid.

[Beat]

An unhealthy ISFJ? Just study 'Hmm' a little bit.

:P

[BerberElla]

[QUOTE=Hmm;372901]First off, let me just say that there is nothing wrong with her being nice to the guy she is with now if he is being nice to her as well. But more importantly, regardless of type, when a person has been cheated on, it takes them a while to get over that psychologically. If your friend likes the guy she is with and he continues to be faithful to her, eventually she will see it for what it is and stop being so paranoid.[/QUOTE

I agree, I wasn't saying that this was specifically type related (the fear about cheating if it has happened before) it's more that she is so nice to him inspite of him giving her nothing but reasons to stick up for herself. (which of course she doesn't)

She has also verbally told me that she intends to carry on being as nice as pie so that when it's over he can't say anything bad about her.

She intends to carry on laying in the lumpy bed they have made together rather than talk to him about the problems. Being the nice one is so important to her.

I hope with all of my heart that it works out for her, she is my closest friend that I have ever had and I love her to pieces, but I want my ISFJ back, I want her to stick up for herself.

She was the one who gave me the courage to leave a very unhealthy and damaging part of my life behind, she has stood by me in court, she has protected me physically from my ex husband, she was a strong woman. Where has that gone now? This game playing nice nice attitude is hurting her more than him and not achieving what she hopes it will achieve.

How do I help her see she is playing a game in which she will only end up getting more hurt?


(anyway sorry for the thread sort of jacking :blush:)

[Hmm]

Berber, I'm a little confused. Has this man done anything wrong to her yet or is she just paranoid that he will do something in the future?

[mlittrell]

http://www.mitzenmacher.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/MU026_FULL_BODY_CAST1.jpg

WIN

and from what ive found ISFJs are the second most manipulative of all types. that last sentence is of course a massive generalization and i have only noticed it PERSONALLY. ive noticed they are good at shifting the blame and can even shift it to you if, even if you aren't involved.

[Hmm]

WIN

and from what ive found ISFJs are the second most manipulative of all types. that last sentence is of course a massive generalization and i have only noticed it PERSONALLY. ive noticed they are good at shifting the blame and can even shift it to you if, even if you aren't involved.

Hrm, I thought you dug SJ's? Maybe just ISTJ's? Do you have any stories or concerns about ISFJ's you'd like to ask about?

[runvardh]

I think my Japanese great-grandmother would be an excellent example of an unhealthy ISFJ. I much prefer the brand of ISFJ my Norwegean grandmother puts on :D

[Hmm]

I want to say something about "annoying."

I'd want to look at it more as an area that could use improvement in the health department. It's sometimes difficult but I like to look at personal "flaws" as undeveloped areas and try to keep the judgement factor out.

With varying degrees of success. . .

Do you mean that you interested in helping your ISFJ develop a certain area or did you mean yourself?


Just missed your last post. You are the only one!

Some courage to face this one, brave Girl.

Glad you don't relate to them all!

Thanks. :hug: If I can help those who actually want to improve their relationships with ISFJ's ( because ISFJ's are common in society) then I'd like to try. I realize that some people are just here to vent frustration though and that's okay. I'm still trying to separate who seems to genuinely want help and who just wants to vent.

[sanveane]

^I would like helpful tips, though my previous post might read like venting (I did edit it to tone it down, lol). But perhaps the ISFJ I'm dealing with may be a bit unhealthy for a healthy ISFJ to identify with...

[Hmm]

^I would like helpful tips, though my previous post might read like venting (I did edit it to tone it down, lol). But perhaps the ISFJ I'm dealing with may be a bit unhealthy for a healthy ISFJ to identify with...

Have you seen my rep comment?

[sanveane]

^Ahh, no thank you! It's a tough one. I didn't realize you're prob the only ISFJ around... I think I might have to go and read something about perfectionism at this point... Thanks Hmm...

[Hmm]

^Ahh, no thank you! It's a tough one. I didn't realize you're prob the only ISFJ around... I think I might have to go and read something about perfectionism at this point... Thanks Hmm...

Ahh maybe. Aside from being rigid, your ISFJ seems completely self-absorbed. Perfectionists tend to be self-absorbed in that they assign little to no value to what someone else may want or desire besides themselves.

[Beat]

ive noticed they are good at shifting the blame and can even shift it to you if, even if you aren't involved.

Finally nailed down my ex gf's type. Thanks for the help.

[Anja]

Do you mean that you interested in helping your ISFJ develop a certain area or did you mean yourself?




Thanks. :hug: If I can help those who actually want to improve their relationships with ISFJ's ( because ISFJ's are common in society) then I'd like to try. I realize that some people are just here to vent frustration though and that's okay. I'm still trying to separate who seems to genuinely want help and who just wants to vent.

I just dropped in to answer the OP, Hmm. Observations without any real analysing.

And I wouldn't dream of trying to help her unless she indicated that she wanted help. I've dropped a few gentle hints but see no interest on her part. Soooooo. We'll do lunch now and then, I suppose, and probably not have a very deep relationship.

I can't say that she disturbs me, but there is a certain caution there for me regarding how genuine she is about her feelings.

Since you asked, there is another. An online acquaintance. I'd like some tips on the best way to interact with her. She is one of the moderators and is pretty aggressive about running things her way.

She's fun and funny, easily offended, bright and full of surprises - both pleasant and unpleasant.

I don't think in this particular forum it would be wise to do any hint of confrontation. It's a senior citizen forum. People are set in their ways and most of them seem to be ISTJs. And they also tend to be some touchy about their values and ideas.

She seems to need a tremendous amount of praise and is quick to jump in and "fix" however she sees fit.

So far, I've been complimenting her on her very clever posts and participating in her playfulness. And the things I see which strike a jarring chord with me I've been overlooking.

I think I just answered my own question. I'm wondering whether my patience will fail and at what point it will be difficult to maintain my membership. That's a sure sign that I will either speak my mind or leave.

Ideas?

[Hmm]

Finally nailed down my ex gf's type. Thanks for the help.

It's difficult for me to imagine how someone could blame an uninvolved person for something. Do you have any examples you could share?

I just dropped in to answer the OP, Hmm. Observations without any real analysing.

And I wouldn't dream of trying to help her unless she indicated that she wanted help. I've dropped a few gentle hints but see no interest on her part. Soooooo. We'll do lunch now and then, I suppose, and probably not have a very deep relationship.

I can't say that she disturbs me, but there is a certain caution there for me regarding how genuine she is about her feelings.

I understand. You want her genuine support. In the moment.

Tell her that and see what happens. If she's a real friend she will consider it, and imo, it would be worth pushing it for you to get some real answers.

Since you asked, there is another. An online acquaintance. I'd like some tips on the best way to interact with her. She is one of the moderators and is pretty aggressive about running things her way.

She's fun and funny, easily offended, bright and full of surprises - both pleasant and unpleasant.

I don't think in this particular forum it would be wise to do any hint of confrontation. It's a senior citizen forum. People are set in their ways and most of them seem to be ISTJs. And they also tend to be some touchy about their values and ideas.

She seems to need a tremendous amount of praise and is quick to jump in and "fix" however she sees fit.

So far, I've been complimenting her on her very clever posts and participating in her playfulness. And the things I see which strike a jarring chord with me I've been overlooking.

I think I just answered my own question. I'm wondering whether my patience will fail and at what point it will be difficult to maintain my membership. That's a sure sign that I will either speak my mind or leave.

Ideas?

Ahh. Because there is no real regulation of these things, disagreeing too much with a moderator will get you in deep doo-doo no matter what forum you are on, or what type, or gender the mod is. lol

That's about all I can say to that. I'm sorry. :S :hug:

[Beat]

Was a joke, Hmm. ;)

[Hmm]

Oh hahahahaha

Silly boy :D

[Grungemouse]

You wouldn't mind me taking the opportunity to grab a few ISFJ tips, would you? I've known her for four years now, but after reading the ISFJ profile I didn't realise how little I know about her, emotionally; I didn't realise she had such an intense and underlying emotionality. *facepalm*

Okay. So I'm going to confess my feelings for her. I know she feels the same way, but is too shy to express herself. We live relatively far away (60 miles or so) but that's fine for me, but I'm not sure about her. Anyway, how would you suggest I go about telling her? Would meeting up and telling her face-to-face be intimidating, or maybe a simple confessional kiss (too aggressive?). I thought sending an e-mail would do, as it isn't too direct and it gives her time to repond in her own time, but than I figured it would be too impersonal. IM is out of the question, because 1) It puts pressure on her to respond immediately and 2) There's never a window of opportunity, and I'm fairly good at sniffing for one.

I'm totally hopeless at this stuff. Many thanks in advance.

[Hmm]

^ Hrm. I think I need more information.

Were you sure before you read the ISFJ description that she felt the same about you?

[Anja]

Thanks, Hmm. I'll give the suggestion a try. Nothing to lose except harmony!

In the second case I think the ISTJ's rut and the jangling of my sensibilities will make my decision for me!

[Hmm]

Good luck, Anja! :)

[Introverted-esfp]

Unhealthy ISFJ's can be best described as ferreting emotional nagging types. Annoying , snooping, emotionally sensitive, and neatness facists. My mother is an ISFJ, and she drives me nuts with her inane perfectionism, incessantly correcting everything i do that she deems "improper" and unacceptble to her standards, she will even go as far as telling me how to tie my shoe laces. While im well aware that she does it only because she sincerely thinks it's for my "best" , it can be overbearing at times.

[wordvarc]

Alot of this sounds like my ISFJ friend, the self sacrificing, refusing to speak up when people are taking advantage, stuff like that.

However the most unhealthy thing I have seen is that she is stuck in the past, continuously mourning a long forgotten past that is never coming back, and continuing to be a martyr to a love long buried. (one that from my understanding did not break down completely due to her, and yet she takes 100% of the blame onto herself)

I can get stuck in the past but I can make myself bounce out by reminding myself that nothing will ever turn back time, I feel that whenever I am trying to lift her out of that negative state or rememberence I am embarking on an impossible task because absolutely nothing I have ever said has ever helped her let go of that.

Also she is extremely paranoid about being cheated on, it consumes her current relationship. She is sure that he will cheat, she has plenty of reason to believe this of course but her attitude is to remain the nice one, to not realy say anything, to continue to self sacrifice and take care of all his little needs, to keep him fed and content, so that when he does cheat (no way will he not as far as she is concerned) she can then be the "nice one" and in no way to blame for the break up of the relationship.
Yes...the past. ISFJ's live looking through a rear view mirror. The present and future are defined by an accumulation of clearly remembered and judged past insults. They are so good at details and do everything right out of service to the past. They are easy to love and great to have around as long as you remember common kindness and are simply constantly grateful for their loyal diligence. If neglected, their sulking martyrdom will sneak in and dominate the relationship.

[dloaded]

Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
Can keep record of wrongs easily
Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)



All of this is true of my b/f, which calls into question the type he's been ID'd as (ISFP). Are unhealthy ISFPs similar in any way to ISFJs? I've been going back and for between J and P for awhile now, but haven't had enough info to pinpoint him. Any help?


Well, remember everyone is different, even within a particular MBTI type. Different strategies sometimes are favored based on past experience(s).

It makes me smile when I read your posts because you're SO thorough and efficient! :yes:


the ISFJ might get clingy or want a lot of their time and energy, more than they have to give.


Yeah, that was a little annoying at first...Now I'm just as clingy! :steam:


My boyfriend responds positively when I distance myself because he's acting out of line. It's how I demand respect and works a lot better than going on an emotional rant about how I deserve respect.

Whenever I leave my b/f gets more offended and stubborn and the self-victimization becomes amplified...He usually tells me to just stay gone. He does however, actually respond well if I hang up on him. :huh:


He kept a lot of this inside and it ultimately surfaced in unhealthy ISFJ behaviors directed towards me because in his mind, I didn't see that he had done everything he possibly could do and that made him feel unappreciated.

Something that could have been avoided had he been able to vocalize those feelings to you before he imploded on himself and then consequently exploded on you. :doh:

Sometimes it seems they are more like problem-relishers rather than problem-solvers...

If you deal with them calmly and logically address the problem like a T would, they won't accept they are wrong.

Thus arguing will get you nowhere with them. Attack the root of the flame, rather than the flames themselves. In fire theory, a fire needs 3 things to burn. Fuel, oxygen, and heat. So, consider fuel as an idea or object that they can obsess over. You can't really cut these off with reasoning, as they will fabricate more. Heat could represent the emotions that react with the fuel. That is where you need to address them.

This is a very informative insight. I am in dire need of coping options right now re: my b/f. If we [read: I] don't figure some stuff out then we're probably not going to make it. So, I definitely appreciate what you've written!

You could cut off their oxygen supply, but that could cause brain damage. My dad tried it. It only got him arrested, and then the argument continued over the police telephone.

:laugh:

ISFJ's are fairly dependent beings and I have learned that letting them be dependent on you for support actually helps them build their own confidence and become more independently confident.

So does that mean that he has his own positive self-talk now? He's learned to play the role you played before, for himself?

[mlittrell]

Hrm, I thought you dug SJ's? Maybe just ISTJ's? Do you have any stories or concerns about ISFJ's you'd like to ask about?
i dig people not types. one of my best friends is an ISFJ and he tends to be manipulative (not to me but others). just because someone is manipulative doesn't mean i wont be friend with them. im quite good at spotting people when they are manipulative so its not a problem.

[Hmm]

i dig people not types. one of my best friends is an ISFJ and he tends to be manipulative (not to me but others). just because someone is manipulative doesn't mean i wont be friend with them. im quite good at spotting people when they are manipulative so its not a problem.

Hrm, okay. Is one of your best friends ISTJ too? Where in the world did I get that idea from? :thinking:

[Wild horses]

Yea ISFJs when unhealthy can really use the guilt trip like no one else I know... they can even begin to stomp their feet and scream and shout like a toddler to get thei rown way (I have actually witnessed this) The thing I find the hardest to take is the emotional outbursts.. despite being a fellow feeler there is something about their emotionality which completely overwhelms me... Did I mention that I absolutely adore them also LOLOL! (Can't live with em and all that)

[Hmm]

Yea ISFJs when unhealthy can really use the guilt trip like no one else I know... they can even begin to stomp their feet and scream and shout like a toddler to get thei rown way (I have actually witnessed this) The thing I find the hardest to take is the emotional outbursts.. despite being a fellow feeler there is something about their emotionality which completely overwhelms me... Did I mention that I absolutely adore them also LOLOL! (Can't live with em and all that)

EMOTIONAL OUTBURSTS?!?!?!?! :steam::doh::hi::shock: I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!11one :cry:

[Wild horses]

:huh:LOL!!! We love you for it (Just as long as we're not on the receiving end of it) Seriously you guys out emotion me (Scary stuff!) :shock:

[SilentEmpath]

Well, remember everyone is different, even within a particular MBTI type. Different strategies sometimes are favored based on past experience(s).

Well, for example, they tend to go for comments or actions that insinuate the other person isn't doing their share or is irresponsible (while the ISFJ is responsible). Sometimes it's even a little more direct: "It would be nice sometimes if I didn't have to always do everything around here."

I think one thing to keep in mind is that usually the ISFJ is trying to be perfect and trying NOT to have relational needs (they like to give, give, give, without directly asking, because they don't want to be a burden or impose); but inside they will feel a lot of resentment if they feel like the other person is taking advantage of them and they are doing. There is a lot of guilt if they are not able to perfectly carry out their self-assigned responsibilities.

So usually it's not that they are trying to be cruel or manipulative (although anyone can be), often it seems to be the "I'm trying so hard to do everything right and be responsible, but it's not working and I'm really upset inside... yet the perfect person does not complain about their responsibilities so i can't say anything.")

There does tend to be some codependency things, depending on the relational expectations they were brought up with. And the more introverted the ISFJ is, the more their world tends to revolve around just a few people... which often isn't fair to those people, since the ISFJ might get clingy or want a lot of their time and energy, more than they have to give. If it's someone like a spouse or a child or some other relationship with predefined expectations, it's very easy to judge the other partner as deficient if they are not following the "rules" as the ISFJ has learned them: "You are my spouse, therefore you should be making me feel loved or <whatever else>."

I'd say that the tendency to give based on the ISFJ's scrupulous need to be responsible (rather than what the partner deserves/reciprocates), plus the ISFJ's tendency to have just a few really really close relationships, can lead them to be codependent more than some other types. They want the closeness, and they can easily be taken advantage of. :( OMG! It's like reading about myself for the first time in my life. You mean, other people are like this too and it's directly related to being ISFJ? OMG, what an eye opener.

[SilentEmpath]

Unhealthy ISFJ's can be best described as ferreting emotional nagging types. Annoying , snooping, emotionally sensitive, and neatness facists. My mother is an ISFJ, and she drives me nuts with her inane perfectionism, incessantly correcting everything i do that she deems "improper" and unacceptble to her standards, she will even go as far as telling me how to tie my shoe laces. While im well aware that she does it only because she sincerely thinks it's for my "best" , it can be overbearing at times.
I'm sorry. I really feel for you. And I feel somewhat embarrassed as well because I see myself in your post about your mother, and I had no idea that my being this way effected people in this manner. :( This is just awful and reading in this section has really given me insight to a lot of things I had no answers to previously.

[mlittrell]

Hrm, okay. Is one of your best friends ISTJ too? Where in the world did I get that idea from? :thinking:
i have A LOT of friends. my SJ friends are as follows: ISTJ x 2, ISFJ x 2, ESTJ x 3, ESFJ x 2. those are good friends. i know more lol. i use many of them in my SJ examples.

[Lightning_Rider]

Yes this whole MBTI thing can be quite eye-opening information on yourself and things you do and feel. Personally I think it is amazing how accurate information on a specific MBTI type can be to a person of that type.

I read most of this thread and I can agree/confirm a lot of the things that were mentioned.

[chimpuloc]

Very true. They also can get VERY stubborn and generally uncooperative. Also, they can get very critical of others when the criticism should be pointed inwards. I can tell my boyfriend's starting to do this when I bring up a problem I have with something he did or said and he immediately starts reciting a list of every single thing I've ever done to hurt him. He's also quick to point out anything he can think of that would shift the blame to me. When it gets to that point, I just leave the room or the apartment until he calms down - and when I get back, he always apologizes and feels terrible about his behavior.

I've found the best way to deal with these behaviors is simply by giving the ISFJ some space to calm the heck down. There are issues in my relationship with an ISFJ that have had to be settled weeks after the fact because my boyfriend's stress/depression level was so high that he started exhibiting these behaviors.

My boyfriend responds positively when I distance myself because he's acting out of line. It's how I demand respect and works a lot better than going on an emotional rant about how I deserve respect. Simply talking to him when he's depressed or stressed doesn't get much accomplished. He needs to see consequences of his actions when he's all caught up in his "stubborn martyr mode". Usually once the consequences are laid out in front of him, he will not cross the line again. Since both of us stopped putting up with destructive behavior from each other (I have my own set of unhealthy behaviors), our relationship's gotten a million times better.

Usually when we get stubborn or uncooperative is because you're requesting something of us that you really have no grounds on (like borrowing money from someone and not paying back and then asking again). Ah yes, the critical part I think comes from, from what I've seen others say, us analyzing and judging others quietly, gathering information and details about a person...and yes, I would apologize too if I did those things. When you corner an emotional person the only option they have is hostility.

That's a very good way to help him calm down. My 2 best friends are INTPs and whenever I get into an argument with them, I ALWAYS lose because it seems like they're being harsh and attacking my opinion when really they're being constructive. Maturity, I think, has a big part in this, ISFJs just have to learn how to take it OR think ahead before initiating we're not ready for.
Like I've said before we think on instinct and emotions that are tied to details, it takes time for us to analyze a person's every flaw because we don't pick singular details, we take the whole picture.
Which is why I'm TERRIBLE at debates.
But, alas, there are many of us that develop in drastically different ways. so this may or may not apply to your boyfriend.

[chimpuloc]

Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
Can keep record of wrongs easily
Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)


Those are the things I generally have experienced.

Oh yeah! And one really REALLY big flaw that I've noticed of ISFJs, specifically in myself, we are very controlling.
Example
It's hard for us to let stuff go. (It's like a child that has lost interest in a toy and left it somewhere where another child picks it up and starts playing with it, and out of nowhere the child before returns and snatches it claiming it's his). I can also be very forward and extreme when I want something to happen. (Like going to a friend who owes me money and I take and keep what he used that money to buy unless he paid me back. Backstabbing a person because they back stabbed someone else in the back, etc.)
I sense that this all stems from the J in our type.
We want order, law, justice, organization, and to have these things we need absolute control of a situation.
Good choice of words, by the way, Paragon of virtue :) I agree!
It's a good thing ISFJ's don't like taking a leadership or follower role and more of an individualistic role :D