ESFJ's help an INTJ out, please. (INTJ female needs help with ESFJ male)

[Harlow_Jem]

So when I first met ESFJ I really did not like him, I wanted to get as far away from him as possible; something about him rubbed me the wrong way. And it wasn't because he was rude or anything like that; in fact the opposite. But he was just too goddam friendly. Anyway, to make a long story short, he was very intent on pursuing me so I decided, "it's summer and he's adorable, why the fuck not." We had been hooking up and hanging out/getting close when one night I completely fucked it up. I was drunk and completely messed up on xanax and half consciously laid down on his best friends bed and ended up sleeping with his best friend.

I told him about it right after because I didn't want to lie to him but he was understandably cold about it and said something like, "nah I dont care you do what you gotta do" and sent me several sarcastic/mean texts and kept saying, "just kidding" afterwards. And last night, coming back from a party I texted him with, "I'm driving back from (town), are you up to chill or should I call it a night?" and he replied with, "call it a night." ouch. I still can not believe I sort of fell for an ESFJ AND fucked it up so badly. Is there any way to salvage this or is this too fucked up to reconcile?


--------------------------------------
UPDATE:
Ok, I need more help. He's been out of state for the past week and a half and last night I got really drunk and texted him with:
"I miss you darling"
He texted back: "Lies"
Me: "Sweetie, I'm being straight up...I miss you"
Him: "ehh idk, well ill be back sat"
Me:"baby tell me you miss me"
Him: "well i do but i don't really believe you"
Me: "ive been thinking about you this whole time...fuck everyone else its just you and me"
Him: "well i guess we'll see what happens...im kinda shaky about this whole thing since all that happened"
Me: "me too...the next time I see (best friend) i will punch him in the face for both of us...i miss you!"
Him: "miss you too"

An hour later, he texts me with: "what are you doing"

And tonight, he updates me with: "im coming back sunday night now"
I reply with: "alrightey...still miss you foo'"
Him: "alright alrighttt i miss you too"
Me: "haha shut up...btw sorry for being a drunken fool yesterday"
Him: "dont worry about it i was JUST as drunk as you were haha"

Please help, what does this all mean, if anything? ESFJ's work so completely differently from INTJ's that I am so lost right now. Is he just updating me that he's coming back on sunday out of obligation or would he not even bother to reply/text me if he didn't care? Am I coming off too strong? This is all so completely stupid and yet I can't get myself out of it.

[Didums]

Uhhh, you fucked up. Sorry to say but I think its game over for you two :(

[01011010]

Sleeping with the best friend is a death sentence. It's hard to believe your really in love with him.

[Magic Poriferan]

Just to make sure...
Do you mean sleeping, as in really just sleeping? Or did you actually make the whole mistake of having sex?

[Hmm]

Yeah, I don't think you're in love with him either. I also say it's over. Even if he did chill with you, he probably could only use you for sex and I'm sure you don't want that.

[hidden]

It's done. Just let it go and move on. Lesson learned. When choosing to drink alcholic beverages and take any kind of medications...stay home. If you continue to try and 'fix' what you broke, he will continue to pull your chain, play with your emotions, and play mind games with you. I personally don't take very kindly to mind games (no matter with the motive is). That, in my book, gives me enough incentive to cut that person off. Because of your actions, he may never see you the same again which will give him enough of a motive to continue to treating you as if you did not matter. Just do yourself a favor...cut.him.off...completely. Move on. Judging from his reactions towards your recent 'activies' it appears that he's done the same. You may want to give his friends the same treatment as well or you could end up giving his friends motive to treat you like you don't matter either. Not to sould harsh...but...seriously...just do yourself a favor...move on and leave him alone.

[Veneti]

Interestingly...

INTJ women seem nothing like us INTJ men.

I have yet to meet an INTJ woman (and I know a few that must be that type) that I have had any affection for after speaking to them for any period of time.

I think INTJ women are so alienated from the clan of women that they are truly messed up. Unemotional b*tches really, its a pity they somehow default into the male category of INTJ.

Male INTJs seem generally to use their T to counteract their almost F side, whereas INTJ women seem to just not have an F side and by implication type as a T.

If life is snakes and ladders... then I'm afraid you're in the snake pit. Possibly not a bad thing... just depends if you ever want some form of long term relationship...

Ask most INTJ males... they'll take a traditional and kind woman (ISTP or anything) over a heartless and unemotional slapper for a long term partner.

lol... I hope you're playing devils advocate...:devil:

[Harlow_Jem]

So you're all saying that there is absolutely no way to salvage this?? I mean, come on...there's a way to solve everything. I know it's my fault that I got completely trashed but I laid down on the bed and his best friend literally grabbed me like a ragdoll and after that, I don't remember shit. If I was any less fcked up and had any control of my mental functioning, I would have punched him in the face if he touched me otherwise. Isn't there any way to explain this to him? How does a T woman learn to appeal to/get through to an F male?

[Didums]

Strategize. Say that the guy raped you (it wasn't consentual) to draw sympathy from the ESFJ guy and get rid of his best friend so that you two can spend time together. Problem solved? I mean its a heartless plan but who knows it could work lol. Also, you didn't get this advice from me :ninja:

[Economica]

I know it's my fault that I got completely trashed but I laid down on the bed and his best friend literally grabbed me like a ragdoll and after that, I don't remember shit. If I was any less fcked up and had any control of my mental functioning, I would have punched him in the face if he touched me otherwise. Isn't there any way to explain this to him? How does a T woman learn to appeal to/get through to an F male?

Hi, INTJ female overe here sympathetic to the desire to be able to solve everything. :hi: ;)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but technically you were raped, right? Leaving aside for now the question of whether you are repressing an emotional reaction to that (others can probe that better than I can and I'm sure they will now that I've thrown the 'r' word out there), I have to say I don't wonder at the ESFJ reacting as if you willingly slept with his friend when your focus seems to be on winning the ESFJ back rather than on reacting to the rape. This discrepancy between your behavior and expected/normal behavior steals verisimilitude from your version of events. If you were to win the guy back, your best bet would be to stop trying and to instead start somehow reacting to the rape - although I have a feeling it's too late.

I'd write more but I'm out of time! :doh:

Edit: Didn't see Didums' post until now obviously.

[Angry Ayrab]

Strategize. Say that the guy raped you (it wasn't consentual) to draw sympathy from the ESFJ guy and get rid of his best friend so that you two can spend time together. Problem solved? I mean its a heartless plan but who knows it could work lol. Also, you didn't get this advice from me :ninja:


holy crap, I can't believe I just read that before going to bed, funny yet really effed up in a funny sort of way.

[Harlow_Jem]

Well, it wasn't rape because I didn't say no nor did I care at the time because I was so fcked up that it never even occurred to me that I shouldn't sleep with his best friend. That's how temporarily insane you get when you get wasted on xanax. Anyway, I guess you guys are right. I should probably just let him be.

[Didums]

It isn't consentual unless you say "Yes"! (I learned something in Health class who would've thought). If you were not in the mental condition at the time to say "Yes" or "No" then it is rape, simple as that.

Edit: Didn't see Didums' post until now obviously.

Lol yea but mine was wayyyy more messed up, and sorry potentially giving you nightmares Angry Ayrab :P

[pure_mercury]

Personally, I'd stay the hell away from both of these guys. One is a complete creep, and explaining the story to the ESFJ would be problematic, since he may be inclined to believe his friend's version of events. I'd leave it alone, and work on your own issues.

[hidden]

Another INTJ female over here. No...there is nothing that you can to do fix this. Nothing at all (unless it's heartless and cruel). The more you try to 'fix' this the worse that it will get for you. Meaning, the worse that he (and his friends) will be treating you. It's only a matter of time before your feelings will be involved, then you will be hurt, humiliated, and embarrassed in the worst way. You will be better off just cutting him and his friends out of your life. Why waste your time with someone who no longer cares about you or who (now) doesn't give a shit about how he treats you? C'mon hon. You know better than this...you know better than to chase after a guy that doesn't want you. ...not even being 'just friends' will help the situation. Just leave him alone and move on. Some guys (I said some, not all...please don't flame me) are so basic and primal that their main focus is sex sex sex. And they will do ANYTHING for it. And they don't care about females feelings and emotions (as in your case) when trying to pursue that which they desire most. Use this as a learning lesson. Next time you go out...and choose to drink, either bring someone along who doesn't drink to watch you or simply stay home to drink.

[pure_mercury]

Another INTJ female over here. No...there is nothing that you can to do fix this. Nothing at all (unless it's heartless and cruel). The more you try to 'fix' this the worse that it will get for you. Meaning, the worse that he (and his friends) will be treating you. It's only a matter of time before your feelings will be involved, then you will be hurt, humiliated, and embarrassed in the worst way. You will be better off just cutting him and his friends out of your life. Why waste your time with someone who no longer cares about you or who (now) doesn't give a shit about how he treats you? C'mon hon. You know better than this...you know better than to chase after a guy that doesn't want you. ...not even being 'just friends' will help the situation. Just leave him alone and move on. Some guys (I said some, not all...please don't flame me) are so basic and primal that their main focus is sex sex sex. And they will do ANYTHING for it. And they don't care about females feelings and emotions (as in your case) when trying to pursue that which they desire most. Use this as a learning lesson. Next time you go out...and choose to drink, either bring someone along who doesn't drink to watch you or simply stay home to drink.

I won't flame you, but the ESFJ guy doesn't sound like a "sex sex sex" type. He sounds like the "it's over now that you've slept with/been assaulted while intoxicated by my friend" type.

[proteanmix]

Um, it sound like to me you were raped.

[hidden]

I won't flame you, but the ESFJ guy doesn't sound like a "sex sex sex" type. He sounds like the "it's over now that you've slept with/been assaulted while intoxicated by my friend" type.

Yeah he does sound like that. I'm not saying all guys are like that or him in particular. Just trying to arm her with more info on how some other guys can be especially when drugs (of any kind) and alcohol are involved. I just don't want her to end up in this situation (or a similar situation) again. ...doesn't hurt to try...

[Angry Ayrab]

wow, you guys are all making out this ESFJ to be the bad guy here, even though he is the one that got cheated on. Well, he is an ESFJ so he probably doesn't think about anything but sex, not the fact that he got cheated on, rolls eyes.

[proteanmix]

So you're all saying that there is absolutely no way to salvage this?? I mean, come on...there's a way to solve everything. I know it's my fault that I got completely trashed but I laid down on the bed and his best friend literally grabbed me like a ragdoll and after that, I don't remember shit. If I was any less fcked up and had any control of my mental functioning, I would have punched him in the face if he touched me otherwise. Isn't there any way to explain this to him? How does a T woman learn to appeal to/get through to an F male?

I'm still missing something.

It's sounds like you were severely taken advantage of. If you don't want to call it rape then fine but you had impaired mental functioning that did not allow you to consent to sex. As Economica already stated, your priority is not repairing this hook-up/fling with the ESFJ it's about getting yourself to some place to know what next steps to take. If you're OK with what happened between you and this guy's friend no one can make you feel violated if you don't feel like you have been. I still suggest you report this to the local police department even if you don't press any charges.

Here's some information that you may want to take a look at.

Date Rape (http://kidshealth.org/teen/your_mind/relationships/date_rape.html)

Most friendships, acquaintances, and dates never lead to violence, of course. But, sadly, sometimes it happens. When forced sex occurs between two people who already know each other, it is known as date rape or acquaintance rape.

Even if the two people know each other well, and even if they were intimate or had sex before, no one has the right to force a sexual act on another person against his or her will.

Alcohol is often involved in date rapes. Drinking can loosen inhibitions, dull common sense, and -for some people -0 allow aggressive tendencies to surface.

Drugs may also play a role. You may have heard about "date rape" drugs like rohypnol ("roofies"), gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB), and ketamine. Drugs like these can easily be mixed in drinks to make a person black out and forget things that happen. Both girls and guys who have been given these drugs report feeling paralyzed, having blurred vision, and lack of memory.
Date rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape)

What exactly did you tell this dude because it seems to me you made it sound like drunken sex, not that you were passed out on the bed not knowing what was happening to you. Does he know that his best friend is the type of man to take advantage of an incapacitated woman? Would you even want to be with a guy who didn't believe you or at least dig a little deeper to find out what really happened between you and his friend?

BTW, how old are you?

[pure_mercury]

wow, you guys are all making out this ESFJ to be the bad guy here, even though he is the one that got cheated on. Well, he is an ESFJ so he probably doesn't think about anything but sex, not the fact that he got cheated on, rolls eyes.

I don't think he's the bad guy at all. He may have made some poor choices in friends, but he did nothing wrong in this particular situation. I sympathize with him and with Harlow_Jem.

[alicia91]

Don't think this was rape at all. Doesn't sound like "forced sex" to me. When drunk, your judgement sometimes goes out the window and you end up making stupid decisions at the time. What if the guy she did it with was drunk too - did he get sexually assaulted also? If this is the case, I guess I've been raped a few times.

Anyhow, as much as you desire to fix this - it's unfixable. Lesson learned - don't drink so much and don't combine it with Xanax. Sorry.

[Economica]

Don't think this was rape at all. Doesn't sound like "forced sex" to me. When drunk, your judgement sometimes goes out the window and you end up making stupid decisions at the time.

You don't think this sounds at least like a possible rape? :huh:

I know it's my fault that I got completely trashed but I laid down on the bed and his best friend literally grabbed me like a ragdoll and after that, I don't remember shit.

There may be more to the story, but I don't think we've yet heard enough to dismiss that it was non-consensual.

[Harlow_Jem]

It was non-consensual but I was apathetic to what was happening since I was too trashed to make any sort of judgment. I am not in any way disturbed or bothered by what happened with his best friend except for the fact that it fucked things up between me and ESFJ.

I'm 20, btw. I sent him a message on facebook explaining all this and he has not yet written back yet. I'm pretty sure he chooses to believe his best friend's point of view of the situation and probably does not ever want to reconcile things with me since it started out as just a summer fling and never really got "serious." Nonetheless, I realized that I had strong feelings for him and that although he is an ESFJ and I am an INTJ, it could have worked out if I had not gone and fucked his best friend. Oops.

[Randomnity]

Don't think this was rape at all. Doesn't sound like "forced sex" to me. When drunk, your judgement sometimes goes out the window and you end up making stupid decisions at the time. What if the guy she did it with was drunk too - did he get sexually assaulted also? If this is the case, I guess I've been raped a few times.

Anyhow, as much as you desire to fix this - it's unfixable. Lesson learned - don't drink so much and don't combine it with Xanax. Sorry.
+1

My god, do we need to make guys sign consent forms before sex now? I understand the desire to protect potential victims, but I think women are just as capable as men of making stupid decisions when drunk (and/or making stupid decisions about where and when to drink), and should be held equally responsible - in this case, we have no way to know that the guy wasn't equally "messed up". If we end up crying wolf too many times, we could end up with real rape victims who don't receive the care and attention they deserve.

/end rant

Re the OP, you fucked up, most guys wouldn't be able to look you in the eye after that, let alone date you. It isn't a type issue, it's your issue. He could be a complete pussy sweetheart and be able to forgive you, but that is a rare individual, rather than something to be expected.

[proteanmix]

I'm a little shocked by the dismissive responses.

If Harlow doesn't want to make a big deal out of what happened to her then that's on her. I'm not the casting agent for a Lifetime movie. Fact of the matter is she couldn't say no, was drunk and loopy on meds. She was in no form to consent to what happened and this has nothing to do with getting guys to sign waivers. If you all want to dance around the issue, fine but she was date raped. I guess this is a case of if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, did it make a sound.

[heart]

Have you tried to have a completely honest and open discussion of what happened, how sorry you are and that you think you love the ESFJ?

Was this "friend" trashed as well or was he sober?

[Randomnity]

This is such a tangent, and not asked for by the OP, but I felt that your response deserved a reply, pm.

Can two people rape each other simultaneously and without a struggle by either party? So do they both get jail time, then, or what? Why is it only ever the male who's accused of date rape when two drunk people have drunken sex?

I've never in my entire life been asked for permission to have sex with me, drunk or sober, and I'd laugh hysterically if I was. Do I need to start asking permission before sex too? It's only fair. Assuming no force/coercion etc is involved, women are just as capable as men are of making wise or foolish decisions, whether drunk/high or sober. Taking responsibility for your own actions = way cool (and it seems like you've gone this route, Harlow, for which I applaud you). Blaming others = lame. Especially when criminal charges are involved.

[01011010]

Oy, that's tough. You should have mentioned it wasn't consensual. I'd still let the guy go.

[Economica]

I've never in my entire life been asked for permission to have sex with me, drunk or sober, and I'd laugh hysterically if I was. Do I need to start asking permission before sex too? It's only fair.

:rolleyes: So, Randomnity, since I find myself on the PC side this time (:shock:), how many times do you think I've been involved in a formal exchange of permission? ;)

It seems to me that you and alicia91 are assuming more than we've been told. (Oh, the delicious irony of an INTJ saying this to two ISTPs! :happy:) Or do you really think that the following positively does not describe a rape?

I know it's my fault that I got completely trashed but I laid down on the bed and his best friend literally grabbed me like a ragdoll and after that, I don't remember shit.

I'm not saying she needs to press charges or otherwise ruin the guy's life. Maybe there is just a little more to the story that counts as mitigating circumstances. (Although if not, I'd be concerned as to whether the guy would take advantage of other girls in the future.) My purpose in bringing up the 'r' word was to shed light upon why the ESFJ isn't buying Harlow_Jem's story:

I have to say I don't wonder at the ESFJ reacting as if you willingly slept with his friend when your focus seems to be on winning the ESFJ back rather than on reacting to the rape. This discrepancy between your behavior and expected/normal behavior steals verisimilitude from your version of events.

I'm thinking that most women would either concede that the sex was somehow consensual (which H_J doesn't) or feel at least a little bit traumatized (which H_J doesn't). It's a rare woman who will react completely dispassionately to a non-consensual act of sex, like it was a car accident that was no one's fault, and so I don't blame the ESFJ for thinking she's lying about her part in inviting, or rather, in not inviting the event.

And if there were mitigating circumstances that we haven't heard about, maybe it's best if he thinks that way; I'm not sure the odds are good that an ESFJ man would react equally dispassionately to 'a car accident that was no one's fault'.

[proteanmix]

This is such a tangent, and not asked for by the OP, but I felt that your response deserved a reply, pm.

Can two people rape each other simultaneously and without a struggle by either party? So do they both get jail time, then, or what? Why is it only ever the male who's accused of date rape when two drunk people have drunken sex?

I've never in my entire life been asked for permission to have sex with me, drunk or sober, and I'd laugh hysterically if I was. Do I need to start asking permission before sex too? It's only fair. Assuming no force/coercion etc is involved, women are just as capable as men are of making wise or foolish decisions, whether drunk/high or sober. Taking responsibility for your own actions = way cool (and it seems like you've gone this route, Harlow, for which I applaud you). Blaming others = lame. Especially when criminal charges are involved.

OK, Harlow has not yet answered the question of if the guy that she had sex with was drunk himself. Two drunk people having sex is different from one person who is drunk and the other who is sober taking advantage of the other's drunken state.

But either way Harlow has stated emphatically that it WAS NOT CONSENSUAL. Rape is defined as forced, non-consensual sex. Here are definitions and scenarios:

Rape is forced, unwanted sexual intercourse. Rape, sometimes also called sexual assault, can happen to both men and women of any age. Source (http://kidshealth.org/teen/safety/safebasics/rape_what_to_do.html)

Here are five hypothetical situations that may help clarify just what is and what is not sexual assault :

1. Peter and Sue are at a party and Sue becomes very drunk. They go back to Sue's room. Sue passes out. Peter has sex with her. Is this rape?

Analysis: Because Sue is unconscious, she is unable to consent to having sex with Peter. When someone has sex with a person who is incapable of giving consent, it is rape. If your partner is so drunk that he or she does not comprehend what is happening, he or she cannot give consent.

2. Peter and Sue are at a party and Peter becomes very drunk. They go back to Sue's room. Peter makes sexual advances and Sue protests. Peter is drunk and feels that he cannot control his desires. He ignores her resistance and has sex with her. Is this rape?

Analysis: Rape does not depend on the perpetrator's state of mind. It depends on what is objectively reasonable in the situation. Peter's incapacity or insensitivity due to drinking is not an excuse for forcing another person to have sex. Drunk or not, it is rape.

3. Peter and Paul have been involved in a sexual relationship for several months. Paul decides to end the relationship and goes to Peter's room to tell him. When he tries to tell Peter, Peter embraces him. Paul protests and resists, but Peter forces him on the bed and has sex with him. Is this rape?

Analysis: Forced sex without a partne's consent is rape, regardless of any pre-existing sexual relationship.

4. Sarah and Sue are alone. Sarah kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue goes along with it by removing Sarah's shorts. Sue doesn't want to have sex with Sarah but she is not comfortable telling her. Sarah thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. They have sex, but the whole time Sue is thinking that she does not want to be having sex. Is this rape?

Analysis: In this situation it appears that Sue has consented to having sex. Although she has not verbally granted Sarah permission to proceed, her act of removing Sarah's shorts would likely be considered consent by a reasonable person. The alleged victim's state of mind is not relevant to the offence if she does not otherwise communicate her feelings or if she acts in a manner that can reasonably be interpreted as consent in light of the surrounding circumstances. As always, if threat or intimidation were present in the situation then Sarah would have reason to believe that Sue's cooperation was not voluntary. In the absence of such circumstances, if Sue is responsive to Sarah's advances and does not communicate her unwillingness, it is not rape.

5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.

Source (http://www.queensu.ca/security/news/rape.html)

The bolded part seems like Harlow's situation. Maybe we're working off different definitions of what rape is.

Harlow says she's OK with what happened. If she wasn't would you still be saying the same things? Just because she's not upset by what happened doesn't mean that what happened to her wasn't a violation.

It seems to me that you and Alicia think this is more like the fourth scenario than the first. Is this correct?

[Randomnity]

:rolleyes: So, Randomnity, since I find myself on the PC side this time (:shock:), how many times do you think I've been involved in a formal exchange of permission? ;)

It seems to me that you and alicia91 are assuming more than we've been told. (Oh, the delicious irony of an INTJ saying this to two ISTPs! :happy:) Or do you really think that the following positively does not describe a rape?



I'm not saying she needs to press charges or otherwise ruin the guy's life. Maybe there is just a little more to the story that counts as mitigating circumstances. (Although if not, I'd be concerned as to whether the guy would take advantage of other girls in the future.) My purpose in bringing up the 'r' word was to shed light upon why the ESFJ isn't buying Harlow_Jem's story:



I'm thinking that most women would either concede that the sex was somehow consensual (which H_J doesn't) or feel at least a little bit traumatized (which H_J doesn't). It's a rare woman who will react completely dispassionately to a non-consensual act of sex, like it was a car accident that was no one's fault, and so I don't blame the ESFJ for thinking she's lying about her part in inviting, or rather, in not inviting the event.

And if there were mitigating circumstances that we haven't heard about, maybe it's best if he thinks that way; I'm not sure the odds are good that an ESFJ man would react equally dispassionately to 'a car accident that was no one's fault'.
I didn't say it wasn't rape necessarily in this situation, I was protesting about throwing around such emotionally-loaded terms when we don't know all the facts. All we know is that she doesn't remember (and therefore she thinks it was non-consensual). Anything could have happened. I was mainly protesting the overuse of the word in general.

OK, Harlow has not yet answered the question of if the guy that she had sex with was drunk himself. Two drunk people having sex is different from one person who is drunk and the other who is sober taking advantage of the other's drunken state.

But either way Harlow has stated emphatically that it WAS NOT CONSENSUAL. Rape is defined as forced, non-consensual sex. Here are definitions and scenarios:
Source (http://kidshealth.org/teen/safety/safebasics/rape_what_to_do.html)

Here are five hypothetical situations that may help clarify just what is and what is not sexual assault :

Source (http://www.queensu.ca/security/news/rape.html)

The bolded part seems like Harlow's situation. Maybe we're working off different definitions of what rape is.

Harlow says she's OK with what happened. If she wasn't would you still be saying the same things? Just because she's not upset by what happened doesn't mean that what happened to her wasn't a violation.

It seems to me that you and Alicia think this is more like the fourth scenario than the first. Is this correct?
I definitely did not assume she passed out, since I didn't read anything along those lines...she just didn't remember. If she was actually unconscious that is a very different matter and in that case I completely agree with you....because it is obvious to any potential partner that consent is impossible.

Even "too drunk to consent" is a shaky thing to judge even from an internal POV, let alone an external one.

Yes, I would say the same thing regardless of her emotional reaction. If you can't remember anything about an event you can't say anything about the circumstances. She may have been consensual at the time until the memory was lost. She may not have been. We can't know, so I object to making accusations when we don't know the story.

[heart]

5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.

Wow. If Sue is not able to say at the very least "no thanks" in situations like this, or to even just put her hand up over her mouth to prevent a kiss, she needs intensive help. She should not be going out alone at all. The only time I could see this being realistic for a person of normal intelligence is with a minor teen with an authority figure, but that's not the senario given. Still it is pretty creepy that a guy wouldn't ask or want some sort of compliance for his own reassurance or gratification.


EDIT: Thinking about this rape issue with the two drunk people. We don't let drunk drivers off when they harm others. So I suppose that has implications for people who get drunk and ingage in sexual acts with each other, but Random brings up a good point about the lack of memory being a problem here. Cannot know if consent was given or not.

[proteanmix]

Wow. If Sue is not able to say at the very least "no thanks" in situations like this, or to even just put her hand up over her mouth to prevent a kiss, she needs intensive help. She should not be going out alone at all. The only time I could see this being realistic for a person of normal intelligence is with a minor teen with an authority figure, but that's not the senario given. Still it is pretty creepy that a guy wouldn't ask or want some sort of compliance for his own reassurance or gratification.

Yeah, this scenario was questionable to me as well. I don't think Peter is guilty of anything. If Sue didn't muster up at least a yelp she needs to chill on the dating thing for a minute until she learns the power of no.

[heart]

Yeah, this scenario was questionable to me as well. I don't think Peter is guilty of anything. If Sue didn't muster up at least a yelp she needs to chill on the dating thing for a minute until she learns the power of no.

Like maybe live in a group home or something with an "older sister" to go around with her for a while.

[lastrailway]

5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.



I understand the concept of consent in all the other examples, but in this one, I think I'm missing the point. Sue maybe doesn't want to have sex with Jim, but if she doesn't express at all her objection and doesn't resist at all, then why shouldn't he assume she does want to have sex with him? Actually if she doesn't resist or protest at all, the guy should have either read her mind or ask her "Hey, do you want to have sex with me?" to know she might have an objection.

[Randomnity]

Yeah, this scenario was questionable to me as well. I don't think Peter is guilty of anything. If Sue didn't muster up at least a yelp she needs to chill on the dating thing for a minute until she learns the power of no.
Completely agree. This is kinda what I meant by stretching the definition of rape too far (IMO). Guys aren't mindreaders (luckily, haha).

[Economica]

Quick response as I'm running late for a picnic:

I didn't say it wasn't rape necessarily in this situation, I was protesting about throwing around such emotionally-loaded terms when we don't know all the facts. All we know is that she doesn't remember (and therefore she thinks it was non-consensual). (...) I definitely did not assume she passed out, since I didn't read anything along those lines...she just didn't remember. If she was actually unconscious that is a very different matter and in that case I completely agree with you....because it is obvious to any potential partner that consent is impossible. (...) If you can't remember anything about an event you can't say anything about the circumstances. She may have been consensual at the time until the memory was lost. She may not have been. We can't know, so I object to making accusations when we don't know the story.

Point taken. I hereby take your position.

Note to self...:

It seems to me that you and alicia91 are assuming more than we've been told. (Oh, the delicious irony of an INTJ saying this to two ISTPs! :happy:)

... Think twice before challenging the ISTPs! :doh: :worthy:

[Mondo]

5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.

As heart said, I don't think this is realistic for a person with normal intelligence unless were drugs were involved.
However, from looking at the situation- this would be considered rape.
On the other hand, who knows what happened here? Peter could have drugged Sue up before they had sex to make her more 'mellow' and unable to object even though she would have done so in a non-drugged up situation. "Peter walks Sue back to her room"- that could have been because Sue wasn't feeling well enough to walk back there herself.

[Harlow_Jem]

Putting all the "rape" discussions aside, I've updated my situation in my original post, so please help me encode this ESFJ!

[FallsPioneer]

Ok, I need more help. He's been out of state for the past week and a half and last night I got really drunk and texted him with:
"I miss you darling"
He texted back: "Lies"
Me: "Sweetie, I'm being straight up...I miss you"
Him: "ehh idk, well ill be back sat"
Me:"baby tell me you miss me"
Him: "well i do but i don't really believe you"
Me: "ive been thinking about you this whole time...fuck everyone else its just you and me"
Him: "well i guess we'll see what happens...im kinda shaky about this whole thing since all that happened"
Me: "me too...the next time I see (best friend) i will punch him in the face for both of us...i miss you!"
Him: "miss you too"

An hour later, he texts me with: "what are you doing"

And tonight, he updates me with: "im coming back sunday night now"
I reply with: "alrightey...still miss you foo'"
Him: "alright alrighttt i miss you too"
Me: "haha shut up...btw sorry for being a drunken fool yesterday"
Him: "dont worry about it i was JUST as drunk as you were haha"

Please help, what does this all mean, if anything? ESFJ's work so completely differently from INTJ's that I am so lost right now. Is he just updating me that he's coming back on sunday out of obligation or would he not even bother to reply/text me if he didn't care? Am I coming off too strong? This is all so completely stupid and yet I can't get myself out of it.

Well, you got drunk again, which is precisely what led to messing your "acquaintanceship..." not entirely a good start. But who knows, you might not have heard from him again if you weren't drunk, cause you wouldn't have thought twice about messaging your buddy.

The guy was hurt, that's for sure, and upon reading the texts I think he probably had something for you. He's actually fairly straightforward, especially with "well i do but i don't really believe you," that means that he wants to trust you and possibly make something of your friendship and what not but you damaged that and he's not sure. And he acknowledged missing you. He's being reticent, but fair, because he's trying to protect himself.

As far as his updating you with his agenda, I think he's trying to be conversational....it's like a way of opening up. I don't think it's a heavily symbolic thing like "I'm coming back Sunday and I want you immediately." He is testing the water, which is a good sign. Thankfully for your case I think you're dealing with a guy who is nicer than most.

You're coming off slightly stronger than you need to, what with all of the "I miss you"'s. And "fuck everyone else its just you and me" is an uninhibited statement that someone might say if they're drunk - bad news because in light of the unstable and extreme behavior he knows your capable of under the influence, he's more likely to distrust any sort of strong statements on your part. Stable behavior will be more likely to earn the trust of your buddy back. It sounds like you have strong feelings for the guy but you need to control yourself a bit more. Or are you sure you know what you want out of this whole ordeal?

[pure_mercury]

I agree with Falls. If you got that type of message from this ESFJ, anyway, I'd hope you'd take me at my words. It sounds as if he wants to see you, but he just can't get himself to trust you. He told you exactly when he would be back, which is not the behavior of someone who doesn't want to see you. Do me a favor when he gets back: TALK TO HIM IN PERSON AND DO NOT GET FUCKED UP BEFOREHAND OR WITH HIM. Be sober and honest and let him get mad at you if he needs to. Explain yourself calmly and really listen. Don't invite any more madness into the situation.