I have this weird problem: ISFJ women.

[mysavior]

Alright, I don't get along with very many people. I have one of those caustic and abrasive personalities that would make even Mike Tyson blush. Anyway, I'm still an introvert, so my personality isn't always in your face, but if you bother to inquire, you'll certain get a dose of it.

One specific set of people that I don't tend to get along with are (what I believe to be) ISFJs. When I get around them (male or female, doesn't matter) shit gets reaaaally weird. I had always heard on forums that ISFJ's are nice and traditional and responsible, and whatever else. This was excitng to me (that and the fact that Socionics says we are activity partners or whatever), and upon first meeting most ISFJ's it all seems true: nice, polite, traditional (no frills), etc. Things go well for a while (in each of my encounters, that's about 1 hour), and then the shit starts to hit the fan: the ISFJ's are fucking full of it. To be more specific, I begin to find myself in a power struggle with the ISFJ's as they begin to see that I am mentally apt. Its really weird. You think they have a good impression of you, and think you are fine, but based on this bullshit response I get down the road, its like I've been judged as the scrawny, awkward dumbass. Pretty much, I got taken for granted, or seen as just some dude, and so now when I start putting some skills on display, they (specifically the men, here) start getting nervous/worried/etc that this nobody is going to outshine them. This is so weird. What's going on here? Maybe they were expecting a timid pushover that they could string around their finger and do with as they please, but then when I begin to assert myself, they start feeling like idiots, and think, "who the fuck does this guy think he is?" Anyway, the worry begins to materialize in the form of some underhanded and aggressive actions to (as far as I can see) remind me, or make it clear to me who is in charge. Its like they start worrying that I'm going to hold something over them, or look down on them like they are irrelevant ("I'm not going to be some little shit nobody to this clown"). Now, its weird and unexpected and aggressive and all that, but its done with a smile, you know, so I cant call out "bitch" or "pussy," I just pretty much have to deal with it, or ignore it, and go on with life. Usually, I've ended up just fine, but these bids for superiority never seem to end. Everytime I meet up with these people again, its the same bullshit.

Again, what's going on here?

This was negative, but I'm not really trying to bash these people.. they (usually) mean well, and are (enviably) responsible/organized with just about everything. What I'm trying to do is understand just what the fuck is going on here.

Oh, and to my real point: the women.

Alright,

The ISFJ women I meet are usually short and fat (like, obese), or well-dressed with nice hair, traditional makeup, and bodies that you'd see on a fitness magazine. Now, it doesn't matter if the women I see are fat or in great shape, I always feel the same attraction (did you see that one coming?). That is, I can't stop looking at them! I'm completely fucking mesmerized. Now, this attraction never really leads anywhere (the "power" problem I mentioned above is a real deal killer for me), but it also never goes away. So here I am with these women who keep bullshitting, and who are just sickening me with the actions they are taking, and who are also (just to show how weird this is) overweight and fairly average-looking, and all I can think of is how much I want to bone them. Heh. Does anyone have this happen to them? Its really weird.

Alright, so I went out with one of them a while ago, and it was like constant oscillation: initial meet, attraction, date, fight/bullshit, breakup, attraction, makeup, date, fight/bullshit, breakup.. again and again. And it was like (as I said before), no matter how disgusted I was with her, and what she does, I always found myself going back for more. And I'm sitting here wanting more again, and so I decided to ask.. what the hell?

I'm also kinda questioning whether or not I REALLY DO VALUE personality over beauty, because her personality is shit, in my opinion, and it continually drives me away once it surfaces, but I keep going back because of the very strong physical attraction I have to her. Sometimes she's fat, sometimes she's sexy as hell.. sometimes she's pretty, sometimes she looks all over the place and like shit, and as I keep saying, it doesn't matter-- I still want it!

I can't emphasize strongly enough how weird this is for me. I can't fucking explain it!

Before I repeat myself one more time..

Thoughts?

[whatever]

my mom is an isfj and my dad is an intp! :D

My dad is a very laid back intp though who rarely speaks (and when he does everyone kind of crowds around like it's an oracle speaking or something!) which probably helps the situation

I'd have to say that the easiest way to get along with my mom is to just go along with what her plans are- don't be late, be pleasant, dress for the situation and listen when she speaks! She's one of the nicest people that I know- I certainly know that I'd be signifigantly less polite if she hadn't been the one socializing me as a child, but she's very turned off by bluntness and bad manners.

From this, I drag this advice- treat an isfj woman the same way you would your elderly and beloved grandma and all will go well! :D

[mysavior]

my mom is an isfj and my dad is an intp! :D

My dad is a very laid back intp though who rarely speaks (and when he does everyone kind of crowds around like it's an oracle speaking or something!) which probably helps the situation

I'd have to say that the easiest way to get along with my mom is to just go along with what her plans are- don't be late, be pleasant, dress for the situation and listen when she speaks! She's one of the nicest people that I know- I certainly know that I'd be signifigantly less polite if she hadn't been the one socializing me as a child, but she's very turned off by bluntness and bad manners.

From this, I drag this advice- treat an isfj woman the same way you would your elderly and beloved grandma and all will go well! :D
"...is to just go along with what her plans are"

This is usually the source of significant contention between myself and those I believe to be ISFJs: we have different plans, and mine seems clear cut and solid, so I have no intention of doing anything other than what I had in mind. When I'm in a relationship its tough to be stubborn, or do a 180 and become the little lap dog, but when I'm talking to a stranger who is getting on with the bullshit, I just can't stand it. What I'm saying is that, alot of ISFJ's make plan and just expect me to go along with it, "just because." I usually do my own thing, and as I said, the shit begins.

Just to be clear, my mom is an ISTJ, and I must say that she is WAAAAAAAY more aggressive than these ISFJs I know, so I'm somewhat used to it. But at the end of the day, the general bullshit still bothers me, and doesn't ever seem to go away.

[lazyhappy]

i get along with 1/2 isfjs

---
pff... beloved grandma... one isfj in my life (the one i don't get along with) is my granny and i don't like her much... she's too old fasioned and crazy (i.e. a religious prick who is senile from old age and is as close minded as.. bush. shes also a redneck -.-) and she totally bashed my sister constantley. i hates her.

however, i do get along with one. one of my friends is a isfj. she is religious, non-conforational, doesn't like debate, nice, and doesn't care much if i bash christianity (we don't have much to talk about but that is okay with me).

[GirlAmerica]

XSFJ's....I tend not to be able to deal with them at all...
I feel like I am in some sort of parallel universe where things are happening...though on completely different levels.
It is never comfortable.
One in my entire life (also my grandmother) is the only one I have truly enjoyed...and even then we had language/idea/value clashes.

For instance, she LOVED the democratic party. Now, being conservative...you might think I would have a problem with it. Truly, I dont.
To each their own. The problem I had with it was she accepted reasoning from the depression era and blanketed modern day politics.
Not ever considering that the democratic party that 'bailed us out, we would have starved to death' was not the democratic party of today.
She never could 'get' it, no matter how much conversation....

The frustration level with such is WAY TOO MUCH FOR ME.

[JivinJeffJones]

Thoughts?

If it's any consolation, INFPs seem to have exactly the same weird attraction/repulsion thing towards ISTJs. I suspect that it's unconscious masochism. Or evidence of Malicious Design.

[mysavior]

If it's any consolation, INFPs seem to have exactly the same weird attraction/repulsion thing towards ISTJs. I suspect that it's unconscious masochism. Or evidence of Malicious Design.
"Or evidence of Malicious Design."

Uhh, what is Malicious Design? I googled it, but didn't really get a definition.

[JivinJeffJones]

"Or evidence of Malicious Design."

Uhh, what is Malicious Design? I googled it, but didn't really get a definition.

Like Intelligent Design, but not as nice.

[hotmale]

I don't know about ISFJs, but I found ISFPs and ESFJs pretty damn charming and funny!

[Colors]

This is usually the source of significant contention between myself and those I believe to be ISFJs: we have different plans, and mine seems clear cut and solid, so I have no intention of doing anything other than what I had in mind. When I'm in a relationship its tough to be stubborn, or do a 180 and become the little lap dog, but when I'm talking to a stranger who is getting on with the bullshit, I just can't stand it. What I'm saying is that, alot of ISFJ's make plan and just expect me to go along with it, "just because." I usually do my own thing, and as I said, the shit begins.

Sounds like you have your own plan. And your exes do too. And you all are very stubborn. Has it to do with type? Sounds like you have more in common than you think.

You are attracted to these women for a reason. And yet you claim they are unattractive/normal and have horrible personalities. Maybe it would do you better to recognize the qualities you are attracted to in them instead of loathing what you are drawn to? Then you could determine if these qualities were worth pursuing- and change your behavior accordingly to maximize your results.

[GirlAmerica]

I don't know about ISFJs, but I found ISFPs and ESFJs pretty damn charming and funny!

Of course you do ESTJ...:D

[chippinchunk]

If it's any consolation, INFPs seem to have exactly the same weird attraction/repulsion thing towards ISTJs. I suspect that it's unconscious masochism. Or evidence of Malicious Design.

That seems very strange. But I wouldnt be able to doubt it.

[Jennifer]

Just to drive this conversation back towards academics and bore everyone to tears (!), I will point out the function analysis here:

INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
ISFJ = Si + Fe + Ti + Ne

Do you see the startling coincidence?

Within every INTP (TiNe) lurks an undeveloped ISFJ (SiFe).
And vice versa.

I think this is part of the odd attraction/annoyance the two types find with each other. They share all FOUR of their functions, so they can mesh very well by design and also act as a catalyst for the other...

... but the other person's strengths are their personal weaknesses and are bound to cause a lot of sparks if both people believe themselves to have a corner of truth and maturity.

The dynamic for INFP + ISTJ work the same way.

[runvardh]

Unless one really does have that corner of truth and maturity and both sides concede to this. It's rare, but it's how I managed to remain friends with an ISTJ ^_^

[Jennifer]

Unless one really does have that corner of truth and maturity and both sides concede to this. It's rare, but it's how I managed to remain friends with an ISTJ ^_^

It takes a lot of inner security to concede to an ISTJ, you're a brave kitty! ;)

(jk, I couldn't resist...)

[runvardh]

It takes a lot of inner security to concede to an ISTJ, you're a brave kitty! ;)

(jk, I couldn't resist...)

LOL, the poor guy was so maladjusted socially I had to take pitty on the poor boy. Didn't help that I could corner him with his own logic and then open a door for him with my own. ;)

[PinkPiranha]

I don't find ISFJs annoying or hard to take at all, especially not the women. I don't get the aggro about it. There's no big mystery in being attracted to your Senser shadow -- I get along smashingly with ISTPs and ISFPs.

[runvardh]

I don't find ISFJs annoying or hard to take at all, especially not the women. I don't get the aggro about it. There's no big mystery in being attracted to your Senser shadow -- I get along smashingly with ISTPs and ISFPs.

Yeah, my ISFJ grandmother rocks, I have more fun with my ESFJ grandmother though, ^_^.

[Jae Rae]

Just to drive this conversation back towards academics and bore everyone to tears (!), I will point out the function analysis here:

INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
ISFJ = Si + Fe + Ti + Ne

Do you see the startling coincidence?

Within every INTP (TiNe) lurks an undeveloped ISFJ (SiFe).
And vice versa.

I think this is part of the odd attraction/annoyance the two types find with each other. They share all FOUR of their functions, so they can mesh very well by design and also act as a catalyst for the other...

... but the other person's strengths are their personal weaknesses and are bound to cause a lot of sparks if both people believe themselves to have a corner of truth and maturity.

The dynamic for INFP + ISTJ work the same way.


For ENTP + ISFJ, it's even stronger than INTP + ISFJ. Their functions are opposite each other:

ISFJ = Si + Fe + Ti + Ne
ENTP= Ne + Ti + Fe + Si

And let's not forget the INTP's opposite

ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti
INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe

All four types have the same functions, but in different order.

Even though we should have the closest functioning, I have no friends who are ESFJ. But I have a husband, close friend et al. in the INTP and ENTP groups. Go figure...

Jae Rae

[PinkPiranha]

One of my best friends is a female ISFJ and she's a crack-up. Very cosmic. Non-traditional. Not squeamish. Maternal. Up for just about anything.

All types have their downsides. To butcher the ISFJ type and rehash them as being both hideously repellent AND attractive just sounds a little sick to me. They aren't like staring at roadkill, for heavens' sake.

Signed, ENFJ Soul-Stealing Anti-Christ

[cafe]

The weird thing is that from my perspective the ISFJs I love and my INTP hubby have a lot of good qualities in common. They are loyal, they are conscientious, they are steady, they are hard working, they may not be gushy, and might be a bit blunt, but they are very loving and affectionate in their own way. You can trust them to do what they say they will do.

But they are also very stubborn and a bit set in their ways and you just have to work with and around that. You throw them the bones they need and they aren't too hard to live with.

Every person has quirks you have to humor and every relationship takes some effort and compromise. Doesn't matter who you are with, they are going to do things that make you want to . . . do really bad things to them and you can rest assured there are going to be many, many times they will feel the same about you. You basically have to pick your poison. If you cannot live with the kinds of faults you are seeing in those you perceive to be ISFJs, try to find someone with similar good points and fewer of the flaws you dislike.

[FDG]

"...is to just go along with what her plans are"

This is usually the source of significant contention between myself and those I believe to be ISFJs: we have different plans, and mine seems clear cut and solid, so I have no intention of doing anything other than what I had in mind. When I'm in a relationship its tough to be stubborn, or do a 180 and become the little lap dog, but when I'm talking to a stranger who is getting on with the bullshit, I just can't stand it. What I'm saying is that, alot of ISFJ's make plan and just expect me to go along with it, "just because." I usually do my own thing, and as I said, the shit begins.


Have you ever gotten angry at them? Seems like most ISFJs - read, most of my girlfriends - need to know where the limit for what they can do is. So, they need to know what they can do that "doesn't make you angry". Something an ISFJ does make you angry? Get angry and tell them to never do that in your presence and to you, in a firm tone. Of course you can't do this for small, stupid things.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. I was on the train with my girlfriend, sitting in a slack position. In a bitchy tone - so, not jokingly - she told me "You always sit slack you'll look like an homeless person!". I told her "If you think this, get away from this seat, now, and leave this homeless person fucking alone and get yourself somebody else, and let me do whatever I want to do, okay?".

As far as plans go: I don't understand your problem. They are trying to incorporate you in their plans and want you to do things with them? That would sound nice to me. Are they trying to divert yours? Again, that would kind of sound nice provided that they are trying to incorporate me into the plan. Do they agree to a plan and then change their minds? This of course requires intervention, in the form of clearly stating that is not good (at first), if they do it twice, just get very angry, if they do it a third time, break up. Do you have your plans and want them to go along with it? Just be more stubborn than them and insist until they say yes. Over time, they'll learn that your plans are good, so they won't oppose to them anymore. "Working around it" and "adapting" doesn't work: they'll just tend to become bossier. Notice though, that I have seen some INTP-ISFJ couples working in a different way; INTPs seem to care less than ENTJs about this stuff and let the ISFJ get their way in most things.

As far as abilities go: there are different versions of ISFJs. The most shallow ones won't believe you have any abilities if you don't have a good outward appearance. The best ones won't really notice this. So I think it's truly just a matter of finding the right ones. If they're insecure, they will show off. If they are psychologically healthy, they won't feel the need to do so.

Notice though, that the two points I outlined above apply to the healthy ones too. I don't find them to be big defects in their overall personality, but when they appear the worst thing you can do is bottling up your feelings: they won't notice you're doing. I used to have this bad tendency to mask everything with a smile until I exploded, thinking that a person should understand by hirself when he/she was crossing the line of decency (read: calling me an "homeless person"), but it wasn't an effective strategy.

[wildcat]

Just to drive this conversation back towards academics and bore everyone to tears (!), I will point out the function analysis here:

INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
ISFJ = Si + Fe + Ti + Ne

Do you see the startling coincidence?

Within every INTP (TiNe) lurks an undeveloped ISFJ (SiFe).
And vice versa.

I think this is part of the odd attraction/annoyance the two types find with each other. They share all FOUR of their functions, so they can mesh very well by design and also act as a catalyst for the other...

... but the other person's strengths are their personal weaknesses and are bound to cause a lot of sparks if both people believe themselves to have a corner of truth and maturity.

The dynamic for INFP + ISTJ work the same way.
Interesting.
Te/Fi however inverts Ti/Fe and vice versa. Corresponding INTP: 4/5 > 1/8 and vice versa.

Look at it from another viewpoint. A continuum follows simple arithmetics:

Should Ti be the 1st function Fe is the 8th function:
9-8=1

9+9+9+9=36
8+8+8+8=32

36-32 = 4 = 1+1+1+1

Hence in a four-letter system one letter consists of a number 8?
No.

On the other hand yes, if we follow the Jennifer path. Let us forget about extroversion then.

The dicrepancy between INTP and INTP is zero.
Eight funtions. Hence eight zeroes.

INTP: 00000000

INFP: 40044004

INFJ: 26222262

ISFJ: 66222266

Check:

12345678
52381674
38527416
78563412

Declension 32 > 24 > 16 > 8
as it should be.

Hence INTP
Ti Ne Ni Te Fi Se Si Fe

INFP
Fi Ne Ni Fe Ti Se Si Te

INFJ
Ni Fe Fi Ne Si Te Ti Se

ISFJ
Si Fe Fi Se Ni Te Ti Ne





The discrepancy = 4.
What is the significance of the 4?

OK. Let us start again.

INTP. Ti is 1. Hence Fe is 8.
Hence Te is 4 and Fi is 5.

Say INTP = 12345678.

The discrepancy of INTP to INTP = 00000000.

What is the relationship of the discrepancy and the number of order?

[MC2456]

Are any of the threads on ISFJ people are positive? I almost start feeling bad just being an ISFJ person.

Anyway, mysavior, if I remember correctly, INTP's don't really go well with ISFJ's. That's probably the cause of your struggle with ISFJ's. I can't really explain your prob with ISFJ women because I'm only a teen and I'm not experienced in dating and stuff. Here, I only can wish you the best of luck for your dating, and hope that the right person will come to you some day.

I think it's really too bad you have had to face people who are hypocritcal, nice on the outside, but totally shitty on the inside. But then, nobody's perfect.

Anyway, here's hoping you find some nice ISFJ friends and people!

God Bless,

MC

[Skittles]

mysavior, I understand your issue. My GF is a ISFJ woman, my best friend is an INTP. I met her through my best friend, they go to school together and they work well together.. if it's not on the same things. When they have to cooperate with each other on something, it becomes a reaaaal power struggle. They can't take classes together anymore because while my friend is interested in absorbing knowledge and sharing it with other people, so when she trys to "tutor" my GF she goes on the defensive. As soon as my GF noticed that she's climbing too high on the ladder, she starts getting EXTREMELY competitive with the INTP. And my friend absolutely hates competitiveness, doesn't see the point in it. She hates when people start one sided competitions with her.

I think her biggest peeve is being controlled, or the feeling of being controlled... which is basically all the ISFJ ever does. Plan on her own schedule, try to fit others into it.. when the INTP doesn't want to be fitted into anything, hates being fitted into things not of their own volition. And.. the whole being polite thing when actually looking down on someone, my friend absolutely HATES it, she views it lying to somebody's face basically. When you don't let people act like the intelligent agents she believes everyone to be, that's when she has serious issues.. and ISFJ's hit those issues quite often, it's in their nature sorta.. they different views on how to handle people I guess.

About the weird attraction thing, my friend also says she's attracted to my GF for some reason.. like, curiously drawn to her and wanting to know how she works or something. Yet whenever they get together it really is the same cycle. They're drawn to each other, INTP curious, ISFJ also interested in what they have to say, then something happens when they have to DO something serious together, they get really upset with each other, INTP attempts to confront ISFJ about it which ends up in ISFJ acting extremely polite (that's always her defense) and backing off, INTP hating them for backing off at the most important time, then they both need a period of time to cool off.

So yeah I would say that the two are best together when they are on equal footing.. when either one becomes a higher rank than the other things get really, really messy. I think they would be best as acquaintances or classmates yeah, sharing things together but should not try to push it on the other

[Athenian200]

the ISFJ's are fucking full of it. To be more specific, I begin to find myself in a power struggle with the ISFJ's as they begin to see that I am mentally apt. Its really weird. You think they have a good impression of you, and think you are fine, but based on this bullshit response I get down the road, its like I've been judged as the scrawny, awkward dumbass. Pretty much, I got taken for granted, or seen as just some dude, and so now when I start putting some skills on display, they (specifically the men, here) start getting nervous/worried/etc that this nobody is going to outshine them. This is so weird. What's going on here? Maybe they were expecting a timid pushover that they could string around their finger and do with as they please, but then when I begin to assert myself, they start feeling like idiots, and think, "who the fuck does this guy think he is?" Anyway, the worry begins to materialize in the form of some underhanded and aggressive actions to (as far as I can see) remind me, or make it clear to me who is in charge. Its like they start worrying that I'm going to hold something over them, or look down on them like they are irrelevant ("I'm not going to be some little shit nobody to this clown"). Now, its weird and unexpected and aggressive and all that, but its done with a smile, you know, so I cant call out "bitch" or "pussy," I just pretty much have to deal with it, or ignore it, and go on with life. Usually, I've ended up just fine, but these bids for superiority never seem to end. Everytime I meet up with these people again, its the same bullshit.

Well... they're not as smart as you, and they know it (tertiary Ti). They're worried that people will be impressed by your intelligence, and then you'll be ahead of them in the social hierarchy, and thus they'll have to defer to you. They don't want that, so they start showing other people how they're better than you, because they interpret your showing off your intelligence as an attempt to curry favor and get into people's good graces. So they want to stay one step ahead of you, so that they can feel like they're as good as you are even though they're not as intelligent. They think you looking down on them for being less intelligent, because they look down on people who are less intelligent (even though they don't say it).

They don't feel intimidated until you show intelligence, however, because they're probably more clever in the Ti sense than most people they encounter (other SJ's). So their moderate wit becomes their "added security" in maintaining their position even when unusual things start to happen, and they see you as a threat to it. They wouldn't admit to any of this, though, because it would make them look bad. Basically, underneath the kindness, there's an immature, competitive NT who can't stand that someone is smarter than them.

At least, that's what I picture when I try to see this from their perspective.

[Shimpei]

I rock.

[kelric]

Well... they're not as smart as you, and they know it (tertiary Ti). They're worried that people will be impressed by your intelligence, and then you'll be ahead of them in the social hierarchy, and thus they'll have to defer to you.

Yikes. Not trying to be rude, Athenian, but this strikes me as just a bit of a stereotypical generalization, and a shortsighted one at that. Now I obviously don't know MySavior or his ISFJ acquaintances, and I'm sure he's a smart guy, but smarts don't really have much to do with type. Now I would believe that INTP's and ISFJ's can get on each others' nerves (my Mom is an ISFJ, so I know), and might naturally grate on each other and misinterpret each others' words and actions, but to simply pigeonhole all ISFJ's (or anyone else, based on type of anything else, for that matter) into such a nasty stereotype is counterproductive (at best). It seems to me that MySavior likes ISFJ's, but just has some trouble relating to them. To which the answer is, try to see things from their point of view, and understand that you may be misinterpreting what they say and do as much as they may misinterpret you (there are two of you involved, after all). It may just take some more effort.


Oh, and I don't really know Shimpei either, except from her posts quite a while ago, but if I recall, she does rock :D. Welcome back.

[Wolf]

ISFJs drive me mad, and I've explained why this is before... Still, I can't bring myself to hate them because they're so freaking selfless, helpful, and willing.

*shakes his fist at the sky*

[Athenian200]

Yikes. Not trying to be rude, Athenian, but this strikes me as just a bit of a stereotypical generalization, and a shortsighted one at that. Now I obviously don't know MySavior or his ISFJ acquaintances, and I'm sure he's a smart guy, but smarts don't really have much to do with type. Now I would believe that INTP's and ISFJ's can get on each others' nerves (my Mom is an ISFJ, so I know), and might naturally grate on each other and misinterpret each others' words and actions, but to simply pigeonhole all ISFJ's (or anyone else, based on type of anything else, for that matter) into such a nasty stereotype is counterproductive (at best). It seems to me that MySavior likes ISFJ's, but just has some trouble relating to them. To which the answer is, try to see things from their point of view, and understand that you may be misinterpreting what they say and do as much as they may misinterpret you (there are two of you involved, after all). It may just take some more effort.


I'm not trying to apply anything to ISFJ's specifically, I'm saying that that could be what's going on, based on his description and the functional order. I don't know whether it is or isn't. I think there are just as many ISFJ's who would accept being less intelligent than an INTP more gracefully than the person in question did. Like I said, I believed (although I could have misinterpreted) that this person was still immature and competitive.

Also, I think that type is related to intelligence to some degree. For instance, I'm an INFJ. That means I'm dumber than all the NT's (which I understand and accept), as smart or slightly smarter than most other NF types, can be smarter or dumber than an SJ depending on their age, skill set, and subject. I am smarter than SP's excluding ISTP's, who are sometimes slighter smarter or dumber.

[kelric]

I'm not trying to apply anything to ISFJ's specifically, I'm saying that that could be what's going on, based on his description and the functional order. I don't know whether it is or isn't. I think there are just as many ISFJ's who would accept being less intelligent than an INTP more gracefully than the person in question did. Like I said, I believed (although I could have misinterpreted) that this person was still immature and competitive.
It *could* be correct, but I still think it's more likely to be a simplification of two-sided misinterpretation, with a dash of sterotypical "she's an ISFJ, so her motives are very likely related to social hierarchy, damn her!" - when it may just be an issue of noncompatible personalities and a lack on both sides to give the other some credit and the benefit of the doubt. Of course, I don't know the people in question, so I could be wrong, but I really don't think it's just an "ISFJ's are jealous and intimidated by my superior intellect" thing - ugh.


Also, I think that type is related to intelligence to some degree. For instance, I'm an INFJ. That means I'm dumber than all the NT's (which I understand and accept), as smart or slightly smarter than most other NF types, can be smarter or dumber than an SJ depending on their age, skill set, and subject. I am smarter than SP's excluding ISTP's, who are sometimes slighter smarter or dumber.
You're an INFJ. This alone makes you more or less intelligent than exactly nobody. This, I'm not going to budge on :D. Trying to metric-ize intelligence is difficult at best, and although I'm certain that however you choose to define intelligence there's at least some range among people (which in most cases may or may not be particularly significant), I'm pretty confident that it has no strong relation to type,especially trying to use type as a predictive element upon an unknown person's intelligence. Interests, methods of interaction, what thoughts and activities people choose to focus on - those I could believe are influenced by type. But raw intelligence? I don't think so.

[heart]

Thoughts?

:shock:RUN!

[Baltar]

Alright, I don't get along with very many people. I have one of those caustic and abrasive personalities that would make even Mike Tyson blush. Anyway, I'm still an introvert, so my personality isn't always in your face, but if you bother to inquire, you'll certain get a dose of it.

One specific set of people that I don't tend to get along with are (what I believe to be) ISFJs. When I get around them (male or female, doesn't matter) shit gets reaaaally weird. I had always heard on forums that ISFJ's are nice and traditional and responsible, and whatever else. This was excitng to me (that and the fact that Socionics says we are activity partners or whatever), and upon first meeting most ISFJ's it all seems true: nice, polite, traditional (no frills), etc. Things go well for a while (in each of my encounters, that's about 1 hour), and then the shit starts to hit the fan: the ISFJ's are fucking full of it. To be more specific, I begin to find myself in a power struggle with the ISFJ's as they begin to see that I am mentally apt. Its really weird. You think they have a good impression of you, and think you are fine, but based on this bullshit response I get down the road, its like I've been judged as the scrawny, awkward dumbass. Pretty much, I got taken for granted, or seen as just some dude, and so now when I start putting some skills on display, they (specifically the men, here) start getting nervous/worried/etc that this nobody is going to outshine them. This is so weird. What's going on here? Maybe they were expecting a timid pushover that they could string around their finger and do with as they please, but then when I begin to assert myself, they start feeling like idiots, and think, "who the fuck does this guy think he is?" Anyway, the worry begins to materialize in the form of some underhanded and aggressive actions to (as far as I can see) remind me, or make it clear to me who is in charge. Its like they start worrying that I'm going to hold something over them, or look down on them like they are irrelevant ("I'm not going to be some little shit nobody to this clown"). Now, its weird and unexpected and aggressive and all that, but its done with a smile, you know, so I cant call out "bitch" or "pussy," I just pretty much have to deal with it, or ignore it, and go on with life. Usually, I've ended up just fine, but these bids for superiority never seem to end. Everytime I meet up with these people again, its the same bullshit.

Again, what's going on here?

This was negative, but I'm not really trying to bash these people.. they (usually) mean well, and are (enviably) responsible/organized with just about everything. What I'm trying to do is understand just what the fuck is going on here.

Oh, and to my real point: the women.

Alright,

The ISFJ women I meet are usually short and fat (like, obese), or well-dressed with nice hair, traditional makeup, and bodies that you'd see on a fitness magazine. Now, it doesn't matter if the women I see are fat or in great shape, I always feel the same attraction (did you see that one coming?). That is, I can't stop looking at them! I'm completely fucking mesmerized. Now, this attraction never really leads anywhere (the "power" problem I mentioned above is a real deal killer for me), but it also never goes away. So here I am with these women who keep bullshitting, and who are just sickening me with the actions they are taking, and who are also (just to show how weird this is) overweight and fairly average-looking, and all I can think of is how much I want to bone them. Heh. Does anyone have this happen to them? Its really weird.

Alright, so I went out with one of them a while ago, and it was like constant oscillation: initial meet, attraction, date, fight/bullshit, breakup, attraction, makeup, date, fight/bullshit, breakup.. again and again. And it was like (as I said before), no matter how disgusted I was with her, and what she does, I always found myself going back for more. And I'm sitting here wanting more again, and so I decided to ask.. what the hell?

I'm also kinda questioning whether or not I REALLY DO VALUE personality over beauty, because her personality is shit, in my opinion, and it continually drives me away once it surfaces, but I keep going back because of the very strong physical attraction I have to her. Sometimes she's fat, sometimes she's sexy as hell.. sometimes she's pretty, sometimes she looks all over the place and like shit, and as I keep saying, it doesn't matter-- I still want it!

I can't emphasize strongly enough how weird this is for me. I can't fucking explain it!

Before I repeat myself one more time..

Thoughts?

I have had similar problems. There is an attraction, but it doesn't work out. A lot of them are physically unattractive, but I can't stop thinking about having hot monkey sex with them, either....and it actually happened once. The thing is, we probably have different priorities. For them, it's all about appearances(blech), for us, it's all about learning and knowing. I think the warm fuzziness(which often turns out to be fake or short-lived, BTW) is what does it. Around the age of 30, these women start really showing their true colors(if you haven't experienced this yet)-authoritarian, incurious, stupid, hard-core provincial, always ranting and raving about the latest suburban hysteria. Sorry, that's been my overwhelming experience. I guess they compensate for their sleeping around and getting shitfaced excessively when young(they're as bad as ESFPs);-)

[BeBecky]

I'm pretty sure I'm an ISFJ, and I'm pretty sure my husband is an INTP. I'm attracted to him even though I don't always understand him, yet we definitely don't have the whole conflict thing being discussed here.

[halfaninstant]

often time issues are not personality clashes... just misunderstanding caused by different personalities.

and immaturity... one side or the other.. or both =)

[runvardh]

I think it's hilarious to watch an ISFJ deal with the conflict of what she wants vs what she "should" do while the ENTP courting her is slowly reeling her in with a relaxed smile.

[heart]

often time issues are not personality clashes... just misunderstanding caused by different personalities.

If personality clashes are not based on misunderstandings or miscommunications then what are they based on? :huh:

[Jae Rae]

If personality clashes are not based on misunderstandings or miscommunications then what are they based on? :huh:

Personality clashes can be based on differences in priorities and preferences, differences in ways and timeframes of doing things.

Jae Rae

[Little Linguist]

Alright, I don't get along with very many people. I have one of those caustic and abrasive personalities that would make even Mike Tyson blush. Anyway, I'm still an introvert, so my personality isn't always in your face, but if you bother to inquire, you'll certain get a dose of it.

One specific set of people that I don't tend to get along with are (what I believe to be) ISFJs. When I get around them (male or female, doesn't matter) shit gets reaaaally weird. I had always heard on forums that ISFJ's are nice and traditional and responsible, and whatever else. This was excitng to me (that and the fact that Socionics says we are activity partners or whatever), and upon first meeting most ISFJ's it all seems true: nice, polite, traditional (no frills), etc. Things go well for a while (in each of my encounters, that's about 1 hour), and then the shit starts to hit the fan: the ISFJ's are fucking full of it. To be more specific, I begin to find myself in a power struggle with the ISFJ's as they begin to see that I am mentally apt. Its really weird. You think they have a good impression of you, and think you are fine, but based on this bullshit response I get down the road, its like I've been judged as the scrawny, awkward dumbass. Pretty much, I got taken for granted, or seen as just some dude, and so now when I start putting some skills on display, they (specifically the men, here) start getting nervous/worried/etc that this nobody is going to outshine them. This is so weird. What's going on here? Maybe they were expecting a timid pushover that they could string around their finger and do with as they please, but then when I begin to assert myself, they start feeling like idiots, and think, "who the fuck does this guy think he is?" Anyway, the worry begins to materialize in the form of some underhanded and aggressive actions to (as far as I can see) remind me, or make it clear to me who is in charge. Its like they start worrying that I'm going to hold something over them, or look down on them like they are irrelevant ("I'm not going to be some little shit nobody to this clown"). Now, its weird and unexpected and aggressive and all that, but its done with a smile, you know, so I cant call out "bitch" or "pussy," I just pretty much have to deal with it, or ignore it, and go on with life. Usually, I've ended up just fine, but these bids for superiority never seem to end. Everytime I meet up with these people again, its the same bullshit.

Again, what's going on here?

This was negative, but I'm not really trying to bash these people.. they (usually) mean well, and are (enviably) responsible/organized with just about everything. What I'm trying to do is understand just what the fuck is going on here.

Oh, and to my real point: the women.

Alright,

The ISFJ women I meet are usually short and fat (like, obese), or well-dressed with nice hair, traditional makeup, and bodies that you'd see on a fitness magazine. Now, it doesn't matter if the women I see are fat or in great shape, I always feel the same attraction (did you see that one coming?). That is, I can't stop looking at them! I'm completely fucking mesmerized. Now, this attraction never really leads anywhere (the "power" problem I mentioned above is a real deal killer for me), but it also never goes away. So here I am with these women who keep bullshitting, and who are just sickening me with the actions they are taking, and who are also (just to show how weird this is) overweight and fairly average-looking, and all I can think of is how much I want to bone them. Heh. Does anyone have this happen to them? Its really weird.

Alright, so I went out with one of them a while ago, and it was like constant oscillation: initial meet, attraction, date, fight/bullshit, breakup, attraction, makeup, date, fight/bullshit, breakup.. again and again. And it was like (as I said before), no matter how disgusted I was with her, and what she does, I always found myself going back for more. And I'm sitting here wanting more again, and so I decided to ask.. what the hell?

I'm also kinda questioning whether or not I REALLY DO VALUE personality over beauty, because her personality is shit, in my opinion, and it continually drives me away once it surfaces, but I keep going back because of the very strong physical attraction I have to her. Sometimes she's fat, sometimes she's sexy as hell.. sometimes she's pretty, sometimes she looks all over the place and like shit, and as I keep saying, it doesn't matter-- I still want it!

I can't emphasize strongly enough how weird this is for me. I can't fucking explain it!

Before I repeat myself one more time..

Thoughts?

Forgive me, but you INTPs and ENTPs make me laugh my ass off!!! :devil::party2::rofl1:

[Hmm]

Well... they're not as smart as you, and they know it (tertiary Ti). They're worried that people will be impressed by your intelligence, and then you'll be ahead of them in the social hierarchy, and thus they'll have to defer to you. They don't want that, so they start showing other people how they're better than you, because they interpret your showing off your intelligence as an attempt to curry favor and get into people's good graces. So they want to stay one step ahead of you, so that they can feel like they're as good as you are even though they're not as intelligent. They think you looking down on them for being less intelligent, because they look down on people who are less intelligent (even though they don't say it).

They don't feel intimidated until you show intelligence, however, because they're probably more clever in the Ti sense than most people they encounter (other SJ's). So their moderate wit becomes their "added security" in maintaining their position even when unusual things start to happen, and they see you as a threat to it. They wouldn't admit to any of this, though, because it would make them look bad. Basically, underneath the kindness, there's an immature, competitive NT who can't stand that someone is smarter than them.

At least, that's what I picture when I try to see this from their perspective.


That was pretty negative, not to mention, untrue.

[01011010]

I've dated quite a few ISFJ women. They always make me want to pull my hair out. Yet, l'm attracted to them more than the other types. It's like I'm very slow to develop any feelings and even when I do, I rarely show it. ISFJs are generally warm and affectionate people. I know I'm looking for qualities I don't have, within them.

[Hmm]

I don't get what we do that's so bad. I guess I'm clueless about this.

[spirilis]

I don't get what we do that's so bad. I guess I'm clueless about this.

I've noticed sometimes there are things that other people do that drive me nuts, make me want to pull my hair out, etc. I'm guessing I do things that annoy people just the same. I guess that's what you're seeing here; a bunch of people complaining about things they've seen other ISFJs do that turn them off. I'm still curious how much of it is verifiably type-related though.

[booyalab]

I'll give you an example of what I mean. I was on the train with my girlfriend, sitting in a slack position. In a bitchy tone - so, not jokingly - she told me "You always sit slack you'll look like an homeless person!". I told her "If you think this, get away from this seat, now, and leave this homeless person fucking alone and get yourself somebody else, and let me do whatever I want to do, okay?". That's like something I'd say, and that's why I could never be with an SJ.
Male SJs don't take kindly to backtalk from their wimmunz.

[Hmm]

I'm still curious how much of it is verifiably type-related though.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking. A lot of it sounds gender related to me, not necessarily type related.

[Hang]

Perhaps. ISFJ make great parents. They are very loving. I heard that many T males are attracted to this type because some think that they can take advantage of them and get away with it. In some cases they do. I know most ISFJ or ISFP in a relationship that act as a pedestal wife or husband. The spouse would go off doing their business with someone else, then come home without the ISFJ or ISFP knowing.

[Hmm]

Perhaps. ISFJ make great parents. They are very loving. I heard that many T males are attracted to this type because some think that they can take advantage of them and get away with it. In some cases they do. I know most ISFJ or ISFP in a relationship that act as a pedestal wife or husband. The spouse would go off doing their business with someone else, then come home without the ISFJ or ISFP knowing.

Is that really just an ISFJ/P thing though? I would be REALLY shocked if it is. I thought the whole being a pedestal wife/husband was just a love thing, not a type thing.

[phoenix13]

Also, I think that type is related to intelligence to some degree. For instance, I'm an INFJ. That means I'm dumber than all the NT's (which I understand and accept), as smart or slightly smarter than most other NF types, can be smarter or dumber than an SJ depending on their age, skill set, and subject. I am smarter than SP's excluding ISTP's, who are sometimes slighter smarter or dumber.

OK, it's easy to think this. I thought this at one point. I can tell you for sure that "intelligence" is NOT equal to cognitive proccess. It may be that certain cognitive processes (ex. Ti + Ne) may tend to attract people to certain subjects (ex. theoretical physics), but it has nothing to say about innate ability. If you suck at math, you suck at math, no matter what cognitive processes you "prefer." (btw, I can offer TONS of "exceptions" to your assertion. Here's one: INFP female best friend is getting her PhD from stanford in physical chemistry.)

Also, intelligence is a loaded term. I've always wondered what people mean when they say they're looking for intelligence in a mate. Does this mean the ability to learn new skills quickly? The ability to store enormous quantities of trivia with minimal effort? The ablilty to memorize entire symphonies after one hearing?

I think you need to think more deeply about what intelligence is, and what "thinking" is and "feeling." A better understanding of what these processes are will help you distinguish them from your perceptions of intelligence. From where I'm standing, being an ENFP does NOT make me any less intelligent than my INTP peers (and I've blown enough minds to back that up).

[Jeffster]

Also, intelligence is a loaded term. I've always wondered what people mean when they say they're looking for intelligence in a mate. Does this mean the ability to learn new skills quickly? The ability to store enormous quantities of trivia with minimal effort? The ablilty to memorize entire symphonies after one hearing?

It might mean they are looking for a mate who doesn't spend a lot of time drooling or staring at a banana with wide eyes saying "yellow...yellow...yello nana. hee hee hee *giggle*"

Now, personally, I would find that totally HOT and definitely look for it in a girl, but some guys wouldn't, ya know?

[istpunk]

I dated an ISFJ woman once.

After meeting a couple ISFJ men I come to realize that IxSJs can clash big time once we get personal with the IxTPs. And it's the IxSJ's fault because they have a need to be dominant in their relationships. When someone is stepping out of line they stomp on them. No offense but ISxJ's would be perfect Hitler SS Soldiers, marching to no end to preserve a tyrant's thought. ISTPs are the ones that assassinate the guardians, because we see not the evil but the support for the possibility of evil.

You guys are really great people you ISTJ or ISFJ, good government types.

[SquirrelTao]

Hmmm, sure seems like the logical INTPs are making a lot of logical fallacies in this thread - small samples, overgeneralizations...

You guys sure are getting emotional!

If this is what focusing on MBTI does to people, I don't see it as a good thing.