ISTJs and being good at distinguishing right and wrong and enforcing it

[Beat]

Is this normal with ISTJs or is it just me? I find myself giving advice to friends and feeling very strongly about expressing what is right/wrong and what should/shouldn't be done. I've been known to get on friend's bad sides for being blunt and honest with it too.

Is this something that just depends on the person or is it found more so in one or a few types over others?

[niffer]

Haha, my ISTJ friend does this. I like this. It's good people care enough to feel the need to do this. Most of the time I just don't give a poo, and decide that 99% of the time, ultimately what should/shouldn't be done is really up to the person.

Once in a while, though, my friend tells me I give pretty good advice myself. So touching.

[autumn]

Hmm, I wonder if this is an xSTJ thing more than a particularly ISTJ thing. I don't think it's bad; I think it can be very important to have this trait, depending on how you use it. How the other person receives your advice depends as much on the person you're speaking with as it does on you. Some types will be offended by this kind of advice in one way or another, and others won't. One thing that could probably help, but would probably take a lot of practice and could be tricky is to try to adjust the way you deliver your advice depending on the kind of person you know you're speaking with. So if you know you're speaking with someone who tends to be rebellious or inattentive or sensitive, you could say the same thing but try to modify the way you explain it to better suit that person, if that makes sense.

[Mycroft]

Is this normal with ISTJs or is it just me? I find myself giving advice to friends and feeling very strongly about expressing what is right/wrong and what should/shouldn't be done. I've been known to get on friend's bad sides for being blunt and honest with it too.

Is this something that just depends on the person or is it found more so in one or a few types over others?

I've had extensive experience with ISTJs in my life. Invariably arguments erupted because they would try to do what you're describing. I would ask why. Their answer would be something akin to "because that's the way it is!" I would scoff. They would become angry at me. From their perspective, they were simply presenting the facts and I was being unnecessarily contrary. I would become frustrated. From my perspective they were spouting platitudes and failing to use their own God-given minds.

It was annoying.

[GirlAmerica]

It is an XSTJ thing.
I live with one of each...it is like having the behavior police on patrol 24/7.

The thing that kills me is they both do things themselves they preach at others about.........AND are OFFENDED if anyone says a thing to them about THEIR behavior.

It kills me. ha

[Lookin4theBestNU]

I would trust an ISTJ to judge my actions fairly as they tend to have sound reasoning ability for the most part. There are some exceptions. However I don't think they are the best "enforcers" out there. I believe this is the underlying reason why I like and trust the ISTJ temperament far more than the ESTJ. As an N type I don't see right/wrong as clearly plain and simple as the ISTJ. I have found ISTJs are actually open to explaining their processes as best as they can. ESTJs though are not nearly as open for discussion and will attempt to enforce things only as they see them. As an Extroverted Judger type myself that doesn't work for me.

[reason]

Is this normal with ISTJs or is it just me? I find myself giving advice to friends and feeling very strongly about expressing what is right/wrong and what should/shouldn't be done. I've been known to get on friend's bad sides for being blunt and honest with it too. Is this something that just depends on the person or is it found more so in one or a few types over others?I do this to, though unlike mancroft's respondant, I can argue all the way down, which must be awfully frustrating :)

[Kiddo]

Is this normal with ISTJs or is it just me? I find myself giving advice to friends and feeling very strongly about expressing what is right/wrong and what should/shouldn't be done. I've been known to get on friend's bad sides for being blunt and honest with it too.

Is this something that just depends on the person or is it found more so in one or a few types over others?

I've always considered right and wrong to be subjective until either I or someone else does something that violates my values. When I encounter XSTJ types, they are very weary of me for that reason and their first impression is that I'm some sort of criminal or anarchist because I have no interest in their kind of social order.

I think XSTJs are very good at interpreting the current perceptions of what is right and wrong, and using the current authority to enforce those beliefs. Where they are lacking is in their ability to objectively question their own beliefs so that they understand why some things are right or wrong, and because they tend to not understand the underlying concept, they may extend their enforcement to the point that it no longer makes sense.

However, the XSTJs that I know that have studied the philosophy beyond the religious or societal perception of right and wrong, have all ended up border line suicidal. So strong are their convictions that when they do begin critically questioning their conception of right and wrong, they begin to see the world as meaningless and purposeless. Probably not unlike an NF would without their values.

[Recoleta]

Is this normal with ISTJs or is it just me? I find myself giving advice to friends and feeling very strongly about expressing what is right/wrong and what should/shouldn't be done. I've been known to get on friend's bad sides for being blunt and honest with it too.

Is this something that just depends on the person or is it found more so in one or a few types over others?

You're not alone, I do this too. For me at least, right and wrong is not something that is subjective or that should be rationalized. Of course I can always rationalize my reasons for doing something, but frankly, I always know deep down when I am doing something wrong...it bothers me on the inside. Granted, this does not mean that I always refrain from doing things that I know are wrong. I'm only human.

Although, I find it kind of funny that many N's think ISTJ's or XSTJ's (whichever we're talking about here) look at right and wrong too simply, but from my perspective, N's are making something that is very simple into something that becomes infinitely complicated.

Oh the beauty of diverse thinking....

[runvardh]

Sometimes I get the feeling that my ISTJ friend sees me as a moral authority second to God...

[Economica]

Is this normal with ISTJs or is it just me? I find myself giving advice to friends and feeling very strongly about expressing what is right/wrong and what should/shouldn't be done.

I don't use the terms right and wrong since I don't believe in absolute morality, but I have been known to, uh, impress upon others my personal standards of optimal behavior. :whistling: :devil: ;)

Isn't it a Te/Fe thing?

[GirlAmerica]

One aspect I have found, and then even read about ISTJ's...is that they can have a very dysfunctional partner. I DO NOT GET THAT.
You would think that a correct partner would be at the top of their list.
Blows me away.

[Recoleta]

One aspect I have found, and then even read about ISTJ's...is that they can have a very dysfunctional partner. I DO NOT GET THAT.
You would think that a correct partner would be at the top of their list.
Blows me away.

I have read this too, and I don't really understand either. I'm very picky about who I date, so I certainly wouldn't enter into a relationship with someone who had some sort of serious dysfunctional problem that I knew of from the start.

However, sometimes dysfunctional problems can develop after marriage or once 2 partners are in a long term relationship, and the ISTJ, as a duty fulfiller, will take it upon themselves to care for and support the other partner...hoping they will eventually "get it together." ISTJ's can endure a lot, and if they see the partner that they love and care for in a bad position they will do everything they can to help and will not leave their side. Plus, ISTJ's do not adjust to change easily, and are for the most part very loyal and faithful partners...and then if you throw children into that mix the problem is complicated even further. The ISTJ may be miserable in all actuality, but because of the obligation of the choices they have made they stay.

Unfortunately the real serious problems start if the other partner becomes abusive or negligent -- a situation where it would be best to take off running.

[Mycroft]

...making something that is very simple into something that becomes infinitely complicated.

I think this is the Devil's Dictionary definition of philosophy.

[Lookin4theBestNU]

One aspect I have found, and then even read about ISTJ's...is that they can have a very dysfunctional partner. I DO NOT GET THAT.
You would think that a correct partner would be at the top of their list.
Blows me away.In THEORY it makes perfect sense. I'm not saying all SJs are inclined to think this way!! However,all SJs want to be needed in one way or another. How better to insure you are needed and that you will stay needed then be with someone who is dysfunctional? Who is a better target for the SJs loving guidance and protection? Would it not fulfill the sense of belonging they desire in their beings? In my experience I have watched SJs time and again stay in what many in the outsiders would consider a "bad relationship". I've discovered that in many cases it proves to be a win/win for both parties in a sense. My parents are just one of several examples. I know the obligation/commitment factor is there. I also know that many of them got into these relationships with at least a pretty good clue that the situation was unlikely to change. I do not even offer advice anymore after I figured this out long ago...just listen politely.

[CzeCze]

Using only my personal observation of a friend but also from the brief summaries of the type, I would say that ISTJ's are givers.

It's true they see the world in terms of black and white, right and wrong, and we rarely see the same situation in the same way. BUT, they are surprisingly softies when it comes to people that they like. And they are very earnest. If you ask them for an explanation they will really try hard to explain to you how they feel. They try hard to be a "good friend" and I think assume others also put this same kind of value on and work into relationships.

Part of the ISTJ morals probably includes generosity and compassion and because of that, they can be taken advantage of by selfish or needy people. They are the type I think that will try to console or possibly 'save' someone they have already bonded with and deem to have a lot of 'good' in them.

ISTJ also because of a strong 'I' preference will probably have to expend a lot more energy and underg some stress in befriending someone and they will likely put a lot of J value on their relationships and even judge themselves by how well they maintain healthy relationships. So they are less willing to just walk away from a relationship.

[GirlAmerica]

I can see that, being an I and J myself...I tend to hold onto relationships longer than I should.
The one ISTJ relationship I am aware of like this, is with an ESFJ.
For whatever reason, they seemingly cant stand one another...yet hold on to one another. It seems a muse gone bad situation. The thing they most liked about one another in the beginning is driving the other completely away.

[toonia]

I have a dear, elderly aunt who is an ISTJ. She periodically rakes people over the coals for being irresponsible or doing the wrong things. It can be quite difficult to be on the receiving end. It has happened to me only a couple of times. Despite that, she has a heart of pure gold. She has devoted her entire life to working hard, being of service, and generously giving to help people get back on their feet. She is an extreme recluse socially, but gives more to others than she receives back.

Since she uses her own resources of diligence and character to provide for others, she feels very let down when they don't exhibit the same behaviors after she has helped them. She moves me deeply as a person because even though her personality is quite abrasive and difficult for many people to take, she is in fact a pure soul.

[OctaviaCaesar]

It is an XSTJ thing.
I live with one of each...it is like having the behavior police on patrol 24/7.

AND are OFFENDED if anyone says a thing to them about THEIR behavior.



Yes. This is one of my parents to a (is)T(j).

[Beat]

Like now. I was just notified that my friend (who is a girl) just cheated on her boyfriend for the second time (same guy both times). I was there to talk to her after the first time and supposedly we worked it all out and she said she made a mistake and it wasn't gonna happen again. Not even a week fucking later. I'm boiling right now. I simply can't talk to her about this. I have nothing to say about it that won't completely drive her away from wanting to be my friend.

Wow, people...

[Deva]

Part of the ISTJ morals probably includes generosity and compassion and because of that, they can be taken advantage of by selfish or needy people. They are the type I think that will try to console or possibly 'save' someone they have already bonded with and deem to have a lot of 'good' in them.

ISTJ also because of a strong 'I' preference will probably have to expend a lot more energy and underg some stress in befriending someone and they will likely put a lot of J value on their relationships and even judge themselves by how well they maintain healthy relationships. So they are less willing to just walk away from a relationship.

CzeCze really nailed it with this post, which I only quote in part. I got into an disasterous 6 year long marriage with a guy who I thought I could "save". I knew I was doing it, but seemed not be be able to stop myself. He ended up being a cheater and into drugs. Of course as soon as I found out about this behavior, I left him. There were other forms of abuse, but I put up with it-- I guess I just reached my limit. So I think there may be some truth to it that ISTJ's tend to have bad relationships like others have described.

I have very definate ideas of right and wrong but will not impose them on anyone and seldom give advice unless asked by someone I know really well. I think the degree of introversion factors into this.

Another thing is it takes time to work things out in my head before I can respond, either spoken or written. Except under a lot of pressure, I won't say or do anything that is not thoroughly rehearsed in my mind ahead of time. It always amazes me when people just are able to think out loud.

I think it is hard to find real acceptance and get any attention from others as an ISTJ. When someone does show us appreciation and attention, we just bask in it and sometimes go completely overboard in our attachment to the kind person.

Here I go reviving another thread!

[Hirsch63]

Deva, you hit it on the head again for me. I will spend some time considering what I might say or write...or do... and this can really frustrate people. I am frequently editing in my head.

I will also over-react to attention, to the point that I find myself being wary of any attention. When I get it, I have a difficult time believing it is sincere and when or if I decide that it is, I can get quite attached to the person.

I have had some toxic relationships; just friendships and romance too. And I feel that if I am patient and understanding that I might be able to help someone heal...at my expense. And I don't feel this as a type of self-gratification just something I am able to, and therefore must do. I guess I feel it is "right" to do.

I do not like to impose my (personal) beliefs or morals on others either. To each his own. This is different in my profession though. Where things are not subjective and where it prevents waste I will try to bring it gently or wryly to the attention of someone on a path to possible error.

Good way to revive a thread.

[LadyJaye]

I will also over-react to attention, to the point that I find myself being wary of any attention. When I get it, I have a difficult time believing it is sincere and when or if I decide that it is, I can get quite attached to the person.




I have an older sister who is an ISTJ, and she really struggles with this as well. She seems to truly labor over whether or not someone is being sincere with their shows of affection, and she looks stricken and uncomfortable for quite a long time, like she wants to believe that the attention is well meant, but she isn't sure. I'm a naturally affectionate person, so she makes allowances for me, but I also understand that she gets uncomfortable with it, so I'm careful not to over-do it.

Actually, my life is full of ISTJ's, and I love them all a great deal. They are solid as granite, which is a quality I do not possess but admire highly. When I want to see someone lay down the law and set things right, I just watch "The Steve Wilkos Show" and suddenly, I feel so much safer about the world. :D