When ISTJ goes wrong [Archive]

substitute

09-29-2007, 01:18 PM

This is a very long post, but it needs to be to give you the full low-down on the situation here that I want some input on. So bear with me.

I know two guys called Dave and Adam. I've known them both long enough to be able to type them as ISTJ with total certainty. On top of that, they've taken tests and always come out as ISTJ.

But neither of them are at all dutiful or hard working. They're both completely workshy, lazy bums. In fact, they almost are bums - they certainly both look like bums, and the state of their apartments beggars belief.

Dave is about 45 and suffers quite badly from OCD, which has kept him unemployable for about the last 20 years. He lives a very lazy life, wallowing in his own filth at home, sleeping, eating far too much of the same crappy food every day, watching TV, rarely venturing out of his front door unless complelled to by some kind of appointment with his shrink or the promise of free food somewhere, or perhaps a film that he wants to see - he's been an ardent film buff since his childhood and INSISTS on going to the cinema at least four times a month, and prioritises it over his household bills; he always goes to the cinema alone and always sits in the same seat in front of the same screen.

He won't go on holidays, he procrastinates everything in the universe. He started to be warned by his doctor years ago that he had to control his eating otherwise he'd become diabetic, but he didn't listen - "But I like this food. This is the food I've always had and I'm used to it, I don't want to change my diet" - and even though he's now diagnosed as diabetic, he just cuts out sweet stuff but carries on eating FAR too much of everything else (a large mixing bowl full of cereal for breakfast every day, for example - the same cereal every day for the last 20 years).

He rarely washes and he hoards things - some good things like books (though he compulsively buys them every time he goes past a second hand book shop, he has to spend about an hour at least in there and comes out with a load of books that he'll never, ever read and that he can't afford) and some bad things like trash (literal trash - "But I don't want to put it out - it's MY trash!"). He only started using deodorant a year ago, and I've only recently, after years of trying, managed to get him to try using a sponge in the shower and actual shower gel. When I've been out with him, people have often taken him for a bum and me for his social worker. He just laughs and thinks it's funny.

He hasn't a friend in the world apart from me, because nobody else will put up with him, even his own family. He's completely insensitive and very rude, he doesn't give a damn about other people's feelings and he's greedy and very selfish, and constantly critical of everything and everyone - I've never heard him give an unreserved compliment. If he goes out and sees any people, especially if they're not people he knows well, he 'needs' to take a few days of sitting in bed at home to recover from the 'stress' of it.

Dave has a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering; he has a MENSA IQ and he can do The Times cryptic crossword in 9 minutes. He does calculus for fun. But he's absolutely unemployable, and he's wasting away his life. When I've tried to talk to him about this he's said that he believes himself to be a person who is predestined to misery, and that he's frightened of happiness because he doesn't know what to expect, and that he'd rather stay comfortable in his misery because "at least I know where I am".

Adam is much the same as Dave, except that he doesn't have OCD. I don't know what's wrong with Adam that makes him act the way he does, and I know that it can't all be down to the OCD with Dave.

Adam is about 35 and has a degree in philosophy from Cambridge, as well as being an incredibly talented musician and artist. He spends most of his time on the X Box, playing the same three games day in, day out. He won't go anywhere that he hasn't already been before unless physically dragged there. He won't DO anything. He lives with my brother Jack (ENFP), who is a driving instructor and has offered to teach him to drive for free, but Adam is yet to motivate himself to apply for his provisional licence. He also insists that they go to the area near where his mother lives (about 200 miles away) for the lessons "because I know the roads there".

Adam developed a crush on a girl called Judy about 11 years ago and despite never standing a snowflake's chance in hell with her, and despite her now being married with three kids, he still refuses to accept this or move on, and still talks from time to time about how he'll sort himself out once him and Judy get together - he's convinced that her marriage will fail which, even if it did, still wouldn't mean he had a chance with her.

Adam finds himself to be so unable to face doing any housework (Jack does it ALL, all the time, and before Jack lived with him it just simply didn't get done and the place was disgusting) that when a piece of meat went mouldy in his fridge once, rather than remove it and clean the fridge, he simply left it there until it became so putrid that it made him retch every time he opened the fridge door. At this point, he simply closed the door, taped the fridge door shut and left it there for three years, just accepting that as far as he was concerned, he didn't have a fridge now.

Now, both these guys are ISTJ - they have all the traits and without a doubt Si and Te are their main functions. Everything they do and say seems to be hallmarked with the letters Si and Te, and yet somehow this hasn't led to any sense of duty or work ethic. They both sneer at people with jobs and careers and at phrases like "sense of honour" or "personal dignity" - they think it's a pile of old crap... though my guess is that it's their very overly critical fathers that they're actually trying to 'defy' by saying those things, I think that a large part of why they live the way they do is because they're still locked in a sort of 'rebellion' against their fathers (though Dave's is dead long ago and Adam's hasn't seen him in years).

So WTF is up with all this? Anyone else ever known an ISTJ that went wrong? Anyone figure out what it was in their temperament that made them go this way? Both of them used to be bright college students that were always good for a laugh, they used to be fun and loyal friends with promising futures. It hurts their family and friends to see them letting themselves be reduced to living squalid and unhealthy lives in misery but nothing anyone tries seems to get through to them. Advice/thoughts please!

And thank you, if you made it to the end of this post! :)

Recoleta

09-29-2007, 02:21 PM

Hmmm...I really have no idea. I have never known another ISTJ that "went wrong." Yes, their responses certainly sound very ISTJ to me, but I think whatever problems they have go far beyond simply their type. I do know that when I am under huge amounts of stress I sometimes snap into the oppostie of my typical personality. I feel very overwhelmed so I become impatient with people and I just drop my responsibilities for a little bit (I usually seek out solitude for a few hours or a day)...the thing is, after my little "meltdown" I always bounce back and am ready to refocus.

In the cases with your friends, I think something would have had to get a hold of them deep down to change them so dramatically. Like you mentioned, it could have been their relationships with their fathers. ISTJ's typically already try their hardest when doing something, so if they were only met with criticsm from their fathers from a young age it could make them really defiant because they figure, "My best is never good enough even for the one person who should be supportive of my efforts, so why should I even try?" (Although, this does not account for them doing well in college). My guess would be something really big had to change internally/mentally for them...and chances are you will never know what brought on that turning point. Have you ever tried asking them directly when and why the turning place took place? I think if you want to help them it might be best to stop looking at the symptoms (the lazy attitudes etc.) and just ask them, "Why do you choose to be this way? If they trust you, they may open up. Even if you are met with hostility, chances are, they will take what you said to heart and at least reflect about it for a little while when they are on their own.

substitute

09-29-2007, 02:35 PM

Yeah I have asked them why they do it and they both give the same answer "I'm comfortable the way I am, I'm used to it, I don't want to change".

When I ask them why they chose to be that way in the first place, before it became 'familiar', Adam says because with his dad not around any more he felt free to let himself go. Dave says something similar - that he reached a point where he was actually sectioned and while he was in the nuthouse he realised he'd wasted his time trying to please his father and that it was an impossible task, that he'd been living with guilt for 'failing' constantly and become obsessed with it. In his words, "So I dumped all the guilt, and it set me free" - free to be a lazy, selfish slob, apparently... He doesn't see that what he thinks is him "being free" is actually gradually killing him and wasting his life - he doesn't see that it's him he's hurting, no matter how much I try to point it out.

I think both of them have a mental age still of about 18. I mean they still bitch about "Why should I have to tie my hair back and wear a tie at work?" They think they should be allowed to "be individuals" at work and turn up looking like bums.

Jennifer

09-29-2007, 03:26 PM

Since we live in different countries, my background of experiences with ISTJ males (of which I have known a number) might not mesh completely with the ISTJ males you have known.

I generally have seen two sorts of ISTJ males, dependent mostly on age/generation but not entirely.

My FIL seems to be very much the quintessential ISTJ in the ways we theoretically understand them. He was born in the 1940's, he is an engineer, he is quietly "put together," he likes things orderly and in their place, he is polite, productive, courteous, constantly is faithful/dutiful to his responsibilities, and so on. He reads Consumer Reports. He analyzes constantly. He is careful with his finances. He would never get a divorce, he would not abuse his kids, he is an "upstanding member of society" because he simply has an inner value standard that does not permit a great deal of selfish behavior. Usually his vices are being too uptight/unforgiving, or not being flexible enough inwardly, or not opening himself up enough to others with his feelings, etc.

But many of the Gen X and younger ISTJs I know seem to fall in a different category when externally at least they appear differently. On the surface, they are much more casual about things. One thing I noticed in many of them is a love for whimsical/droll humor, or anti-establishment humor. Many of them actually love cartoons (Pinky and the Brain, Warner Brothers, Ren and Stimpy, etc. Most do not seem to like Spongebob much, but perhaps he's a little too goofy/NF for them...) And they get very much into popular video games and can blow off a great deal of time doing unproductive entertainment-oriented things.

Still, they often have conservative values inside, in terms of their faith and their political beliefs. They still often will get very vehement and judgmental of others who violate their religious and political beliefs ("Of course God is real, gays are disgusting and a violation of the natural order, why should we support people who are poor probably because they did not plan well enough in their youth, let's be very tough on crime and maintain capital punishment regardless of circumstances, etc.")

As SJs there is also the context of "authority" which overshadows everything they do. They position themselves either in accordance with or against it, but their reactions very much come down to, "Am I a follower or am I a rebel?" It is not uncommon to see SJ males as "being rebellious" in their teenage years, just in order to throw off the yoke of authority, then once they settle down and feel that they are independent, to turn right around and now become conformers in society. ISTJs are these quiet rebels, as opposed to the more extroverted types.

(NT males, in contrast, either never turn around; or often they never really care either way. They just IGNORE society as much as they can and only become angry if it is forced on them and they cannot escape its influence. Otherwise, though, it is more of a "live and let live" credo.)

So I think it is part of a hallmark of the culture they have grown up in. ISTJ men also hold awful grudges by nature, not just against those who have personally betrayed/lied to them in some way (this accusation might not be agreed upon by the other people, but it is how the ISTJ perceives it!). They have an awful time with forgiveness, and they tend to respond by just digging in their heels, or behaving in ways that repudiate and embarrass the parental figure who did not live up to their values.

So I usually NT males behaving this way simply because they think society is stupid and they would do their own thing regardless. With ISTJ males, it is usually a form of active rejection for their own hurts growing up; they are RESPONDING to their past in some way. There is always some overlap of these motivations, true, but in general this is how it plays out.

I just read the very last post you made -- and it seems to support this. Dave is very much retaliating against his dad, although he is choosing to portray it as "throwing off the past." But in the process, he is still a prisoner of it because it is still dictating his actions.

substitute

09-29-2007, 03:45 PM

Jennifer

09-29-2007, 03:56 PM

Yes, there's an element of that - both of them seem to have categorised themselves as 'anti-establishment' somewhere in their teens and got into the habit of what they see as 'non-conformism', a somewhat immature interpretation of it that excludes all things that 'everyone else' does such as washing, manners and contributing to society, seeing doing these things as 'selling out'.

Doh! Thank you for summing up my rambling post in a few sentences. "Anti-establishment" is a good form of it.

I think if you look at functions, you also see it come up in the weaker functions.

ISTJ = Si + Te + Fi + Ne

A weak Ne usually leads to cynicism and paranoia. Unrealistically negative motives are often read into everything. Everyone has some ulterior purpose, and the only way to avoid it is to avoid the establishment, reject it outright, and be suspicious of society's demands.

Also, in stress points, an ISTJ who does not trust his or her ability to Te sufficiently (i.e., break down and accomplish tasks as they go, be constructive), will try to remain introverted by relying on their weak tertiary Fi.

So you get them operating out of Si + Fi.

Si is their past map of the way the world "is." In a confusing world of possibilities, the ISTJ needs the inner map to anchor them. It's usually based on how they were raised and/or the cultural values, which then they cling to to defend against all the new information coming at them later in life, especially in a society where things are changing.

Meanwhile, the lenore thomson wiki (http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/Tertiary_Temptation) describes tertiary Fi as saying:

"I can't possibly go along with this, because it would mar my soul. It's not 'me'. I am a good person, and in order to maintain my integrity, I need to steer clear of this. This is the responsibility of those other people: it emerges from their souls, not mine, so it's their problem." The Secondary Function (Te) would say: "Do something. Take responsibility even if no one gave it to you, and go after some tangible gain right now, within the limits of the situation and your current understanding. That will improve your position, after which you can re-assess and plot a new course."

So a Te-weak ISTJ might be tempted to just label themselves as good, and dump all the social demands on other people, who "have the problem," and meanwhile never become overly constructive in their behavior or take responsibility for their own actions. They are hesitant to deal with things as they come and take risks, because they do not trust themselves to cope with the risks.

I also don't know if the disruption of the father/son learning pathway in western society over the last 50-60 years impacted this. The Baby Boomer generation still had the benefit of learning from their parents' generation. They learned a host of practical issues, such as paying bills, fixing things, accomplish tasks (all the "handiwork" associated with ISTJ). The Gen X generation was mostly left to fend for itself. The pathway was disrupted, and faith in one's Te abilities was diminished; practical tools, processes, abilities, and knowledge was never passed down, in terms of how to accomplish tasks.

Thus your ISTJ friends figure out on their own how to do the "fun" things but have no clue how to do the "difficult" things, and because their inner Si map doesn't know how to do those things, they rebel and cling to their map.

That is just a speculation, though....?

Metamorphosis

09-29-2007, 04:13 PM

Jennifer's first post sounds spot on. Also, it seems to me that eventhough ISTJs are guardians, their guardianship only applies to either 1. finances (like, enough to live on) and 2. other people and their finances

but this is only based on limited experience

substitute

09-29-2007, 04:22 PM

wildcat

09-29-2007, 07:59 PM

Neither Dave nor Adam are at all 'guardianish' with their finances - they've both cycled through the whole out-of-control-debt situation, the frozen accounts, the county court judgements, the cutting up of cards and the existing with no credit for years until their record is wiped clean and then as soon as they get another credit card they begin the process again. And it's always buying stupid stuff that they don't need and don't use, like these mountains of books or Star Wars Lego stuff that just sits in its boxes in storage, they just hoard stuff like there's no tomorrow and never, ever seem to learn from their mistakes.

Jennifer, that second post of yours was very enlightening. I'm pondering on it now!

Dave definately has very weak Ne and he's certainly paranoid. It took years of knowing him before he told me about his OCD (even though it was so screamingly obvious I've no idea how he can have thought I didn't know already), because he said he's afraid that if he tells people then they'll "use it as a weapon against me". He's screwed himself over countless times in situations where if he'd just told someone that this odd thing he was doing or needed was to do with his OCD, everything would've been fine, but he's refused to tell them and just let them think he's a complete loon or a selfish, impossible bastard for fear that if he told them that he, say, wouldn't go out the back door because he'd seen a dog turd there a few days ago and it played havoc with his OCD, then they'd start planting dog turds all around his house or something!
Only in Europe.
There the government feeds the miserable.

Before the late 60s these men would have been committed either to a labour camp or to an institution of a kind.
The antisocial attitude was a crime those days. The committed often hanged themselves in their cells.

The choices are different in our day. You can choose to work or not to work. If you choose not to work the price for the release is not immediately exacted.
You pay later.

I should say socialism is the first cause. I do not say we should go back to the old days. A comment on the prevalent policy has nothing to do with the question.

The second cause is the ISTJ circumstance. It is not irrespective of the first cause. In good or bad, the ISTJ is affected by the environment more than any other type.

If the society allows these guys go awry, they do.

Metamorphosis

09-29-2007, 08:08 PM

That's an interesting point.

Would you say that ISTJs are more effected by their surroundings (societally speaking) than other types?

MacGuffin

09-29-2007, 08:16 PM

At some point mental problems override MBTI preferences.

wildcat

09-29-2007, 08:20 PM

That's an interesting point.

Would you say that ISTJs are more effected by their surroundings (societally speaking) than other types?
Yes.

wildcat

09-29-2007, 08:30 PM

At some point mental problems override MBTI preferences.
ISTJ is the only MBTI preference with a penchant towards apathy.
Of course you can call it a mental problem.

Splittet

09-29-2007, 09:52 PM

ISTJ is the only MBTI preference with a penchant towards apathy.
Of course you can call it a mental problem.

Sorry, but the theory is not exactly obvious to me … What are your arguments for it?

Same goes for:

In good or bad, the ISTJ is affected by the environment more than any other type.

Aren’t extroverts on average more affected by the environment than introverts? And what makes ISTJs more affected by environment than ISFJs? As far as secondary functions go, I would argue Fe is far more confirming in nature than Te …

substitute

09-29-2007, 10:45 PM

Aren’t extroverts on average more affected by the environment than inroverts? And what makes ISTJs more affected by environment than ISFJs? As far as secondary functions go, I would argue Fe is far more confirming in nature than Te …

I would say that his very dominant Si makes him very vulnerable to freaking out when his external circumstances change, or in fact when anything changes at all, either internally or externally.

He's also liable to panic when confronted with choices - he gets paralysed with fear of making The Wrong Choice, believing as he does in absolutes, blacks and whites and no greys. I remember when he went to buy a vacuum and I went with him. He walked into the shop, looked at the different vacuums all in a row, stood stock still for a moment, then ran out of the shop, fell down against the wall shaking and panicking. He was overwhelmed with anxiety at the prospect that he had to choose from so many, and terrified that he'd choose The Wrong One. He equates correctness/accuracy with morality/worthiness as a person, and judges himself by those criteria. If he Gets Things Wrong then it means he's a Bad Person, in his mind. He's seriously screwed up.

As for Wildcat's comments regarding socialism etc - the man has OCD, which is in the WHO's top ten of most debilitating mental illnesses. It's not a con or a game, dude, he's seriously nuts. It's not that the system supports his laziness, more that the health system fails to support him. I know and he knows that he's not fit for normal society and needs full time professional care. However, not only are there no beds spare, but even when he was in the nut ward, it didn't help him at all because they're so understaffed and underfunded. A man who will happily let a banknote blow away in the wind rather than bend down and pick it up, and who can't open a bank account because he won't touch the post that comes through the letterbox - all because he won't touch anything that's been on the floor - is not employable. You don't think he's just faking it as an excuse to be lazy do you - to the tune of all those lost banknotes, and all the other many things that he's "lost" due to them having fallen on the floor?

This isn't the fault of 'Europe' or 'socialism' - all societies in all times have had a million mechanisms whereby people can become poor and miserable and stay that way, whether through their own fault or not.

In any case, all the 'official' systems that are supposed to help and support him are and have been singly failing to do so, and as his other friends and family have given up on him and I seem to be the only one left, I feel as though I have to do what I can to help him, but it's very difficult because he's so pig-headed and as I say, takes a 'fundamentalist' approach to everything in life, plus I'm not naturally the most patient or sympathetic of people anyway. But I'm all he's got.

It just seems as though his own temperament is working against him, no matter how much he wants to get better. He does have some redeeming qualities ... lol... otherwise I doubt I'd have stuck by him for so many years!!

At some point mental problems override MBTI preferences.

Agreed, but I'm wondering to what extent his MBTI preferences have influenced the progress of his mental illness or even his vulnerability to it in the first place, and how they also act as a 'natural' impediment or hindrance to his ever getting better. If I were to picture OCD and his general attitude as a preying monster, I expect it'd slather with glee when it comes across an ISXJ.

Splittet

09-29-2007, 10:58 PM

substitute, why did you quote me? I can't see how what you quoted by me relates to what you wrote. *confused*

substitute

09-29-2007, 11:04 PM

substitute, why did you quote me? I can't see how what you quoted by me relates to what you wrote. *confused*

I was explaining/answering your question/point about whether ISTJ's were strongly affected by the world/environment around them. Quite literally forwardslashtastic, mate.*

In other words I was saying yes they are, probably more so than even me as a true extravert, in the respect that they have a great need for their environment to be stable, whereas I'll wing it and manage whatever my environment 'does'.

Oh yeah, and he has a need to be seen as always Being Correct.

Tsk - J's! Always have to connect the dots for 'em ;)

*British joke thing, don't worry if you don't get it

Splittet

09-29-2007, 11:14 PM

I was explaining/answering your question/point about whether ISTJ's were strongly affected by the world/environment around them. Quite literally forwardslashtastic, mate.*

In other words I was saying yes they are, probably more so than even me as a true extravert, in the respect that they have a great need for their environment to be stable, whereas I'll wing it and manage whatever my environment 'does'.

Tsk - J's! Always have to connect the dots for 'em ;)

*British joke thing, don't worry if you don't get it

I was confused because you misunderstood my post (I did suspect you had). Just because I say extroverts on average are more affected by their environments than introverts, doesn’t mean every extroverted type on average is more affected by their environment than every introverted type. It does however indicate that the type most affected by his environment would be extroverted (and I was trying to raise some question as to why the ISTJ type is maybe not the type MOST affected by environment). Anyhow, I guess I should rather have said extroversion correlates with being affected by the environment. That would have been easier to understand.

When you are talking about these things people seem to misunderstand you whatever you say. They seem to be paranoid you have a B&W view, and read you as if you have, whenever they get the chance.

substitute

09-29-2007, 11:23 PM

When you are talking about these things people seem to misunderstand you whatever you say. They seem to be paranoid you have a B&W view, and read you as if you have, whenever they get the chance.

LOL I always seem to have these cross-wires things with INTJ's, I don't know why, but it's always you guys - maybe cos I'm sorta the king of what y'all see as 'irrelevances' :D

No, I didn't misunderstand you - I got your point and I was sorta half-agreeing with it, but with a caveat that I think people with high Si are probably the most affected by the environment - purely the environment itself, as opposed to their relationship with it or use for/of it - in that if that environment changes, the SJ is flustered and the ISJ hits the panic button. I guess you could say that I was agreeing with your I/E axis there, but proposing another axis that correlates strength of Si preference with the same thing. That is, the same result can be caused by different things.

I didn't think you had a B&W view - I think maybe you're paranoid that people are paranoid that you have a B&W view ;) I wasn't thinking anything of the sort :) I was just adding something else that I saw as vaguely relevant to the discussion in general, not necessarily you personally. I actually think you're pretty cool.

Splittet

09-29-2007, 11:29 PM

No, I didn't misunderstand you - I got your point and I was sorta half-agreeing with it, but with a caveat that I think people with high Si are probably the most affected by the environment - purely the environment itself, as opposed to their relationship with it or use for/of it - in that if that environment changes, the SJ is flustered and the ISJ hits the panic button.

I would speculate Si and Fe are the two most confirming functions, by far. That would make either the ESFJ type or ISFJ type most affected by their environment. I simply cannot see a reason why ISTJs would be more affected by their environment than these two types.

Anyhow, no hard feelings. :)

substitute

09-29-2007, 11:39 PM

I would speculate Si and Fe are the two most confirming functions. That would make either the ESFJ type or ISFJ type most affected by their environment. I simply cannot see a reason why ISTJs would be more affected by their environment than these two types.

Not 'more', but possibly 'as', due to the Si needing stability and the Te needing 'correctness'. There's a part in a French movie that reminds me a lot of what I think is a side-effect of the Si-Te partnership:

Père Leon: What's your name?
Chouchou (a man): Chouchou
Frère Jean: [giggles and sneers]
Chouchou: [upset, self-conscious, embarrassed]
Père Leon: Oh don't mind him, he just needs things to be... arbitrarily correct.

Doesn't translate quite so well into English, but I hope you see the point. The Frère Jean character is very much ISTJ, and needs things in the environment around him to be stable and 'arbitrarily correct' - that is, correct as he defines the term, according to his prior experience, no matter how limited or dubious.

And he needs to be seen as Always Being Right. Dave and Adam really can't stand it if they're proven to be wrong about something, or if something they say confidently believing it to be the One Correct Answer, is conclusively shown to be wrong - they both just fall to pieces, totally embarrassed and ashamed and they usually leave the room as soon as face allows it and go beat themselves up in another room. And they're both TERRIBLE losers at things like Scrabble, and absolutely absurdly competitive with them. Like Dave will actually spend ages taking his turn when he's playing against my 8 year old daughter, because he NEEDS not just to beat her but to THRASH her. He can't even 'let her win', even though he can't seriously believe that anyone questions the fact that he's capable of beating her.

So that's how I think that Si-Te can be just as strongly affected by their environment as Si-Fe.

Splittet

09-29-2007, 11:48 PM

Not 'more', but possibly 'as', due to the Si needing stability and the Te needing 'correctness'.

[...]

So that's how I think that Si-Te can be just as strongly affected by their environment as Si-Fe.

Can be, sure, but on average, I highly doubt it ... But anyhow this all comes down to definition. What do we think of as being "affected by environment", I guess we might see that a bit differently.

substitute

09-29-2007, 11:54 PM

Can be, sure, but on average, I highly doubt it ... But anyhow this all comes down to definition. What do we think of as being "affected by environment", I guess we might see that a bit differently.

True... I'm thinking of both human and non-human elements. I suppose I'm thinking that the Te pedantry and perfectionism is a sort of Thinking equivalent to the Fe insistence on everyone/thing being happy and cheerful and 'nice'...? Te is just as 'hurt' by people being (or seeing him as) inaccurate/slovenly as the Fe is by people being 'mean' or seeing them as mean.

wildcat

09-30-2007, 01:34 AM

Sorry, but the theory is not exactly obvious to me … What are your arguments for it?

Same goes for:

Aren’t extroverts on average more affected by the environment than introverts? And what makes ISTJs more affected by environment than ISFJs? As far as secondary functions go, I would argue Fe is far more confirming in nature than Te …
I do not see you can separate the MBTI of general psychology.

According to Eysenck the dichotomy of E is impulsion and activity.
Within the MBTI P and J highly correlate with impulsion and activity, respectively.
P and J are the opposite poles within the E continuum.

It would be much too simple and even incorrect to say EP corresponds with impulsion and EJ with activity.

The poles are not the continuum. E is not J + P but the continuum between J and P.

What if you are all J but have no adequate P: are you then an extravert? Does activity function without impulsion?

Extraverts may have one side dominant, but they need both.
Impulsivity is the prerequisite of activity.

An extreme ISTJ has no functioning Ne. Therefore he needs discipline. He succeeds in an environment where he is the recipient of direct orders. Then the responsibility is not his.

The ISFJ on the other hand does not need direct orders. Social pressure is enough. What people may think of her if she does not go to work and clean her room?

The extraverts or other kind of introverts do not need the will of others. They are endowed with the will or shame = their activity is functioning.

wildcat

09-30-2007, 10:13 AM

I had an ISTJ friend, a school mate.
He followed me everywhere.

He was a dedicated young Communist. He saw forward to the day when he could vote.
To be there for the cause.

He liked to have a multitude of books hanging about his room. On display.
He had a wardrobe full of clothes. He liked to show them.
He could not afford to buy anything.

One day they got him. A police officer came to his home. He was a decent chap. They did not inform the school.

After school he went to work in a shop. There he found another friend, a T.P.

His mother died. He came to see me after the funeral.
He confessed.
He said: I know you do not like it, but I wept there by the coffin.. I could not help it.
His eyes said: Please forgive me.

He never had a girl friend. I was surprised when one day, years later, he came to see me with a girl in a tow.

She was a sprightly young thing, an ESFJ.
A solid member of the Agrarian Party.
She announced they were going to get married immediately.

After the wedding I called him.
He said he voted for the Agrarian Party.
He said: Do not call me. I call you.
But he did not call.

So one day I called him.
The wife answered the phone. She said: My husband is not coming to the phone.

I ran into his other friend, T.P.
He said: I called our friend but the wife said he is not coming to the phone.

I met the husband in the train. When he saw me, he panicked. He left the compartment and walked to the other end of the train. I think he went to the lavatory to hide, because I could not find him.

He had found happiness.
It was quite unnecessary to be shamefaced about it.

GirlAmerica

09-30-2007, 02:18 PM

PTypes - Correspondence of PTypes, Keirsey, Enneagram, Psychiatric, and Astrological Types (http://www.ptypes.com/correspondence.html)

This link is interesting, cooresponding personality types/mental health issues...it has proven helpful in the past.

GirlAmerica

09-30-2007, 02:19 PM

I also know a number of ISTJ men who stay in very bad unhappy marriages.

One I know sites having children as the reason for staying.

Helfeather

09-30-2007, 07:34 PM

I can related to your friends.

I, myself, as a weak ISTJ, could imagine myself living their lives. It's a very simple, safe, and low-key life.

ISTJs are only duty-fillers when they see the work as WORTH completing, especially if there is a desirable reward or dire consequence. When they do, they go to no ends to finish it. They need to be properly motivated.

I am guessing that your friends have not found the -purpose- they are seeking. They are very happy with their safe lives (according to themselves) right now. They don't like changing their lifestyle for the fear of hardship.

Once they do, expect them to progress at an alarming rate. They need a 'trigger'. Help them.

substitute

09-30-2007, 08:23 PM

I am guessing that your friends have not found the -purpose- they are seeking. They are very happy with their safe lives (according to themselves) right now. They don't like changing their lifestyle for the fear of hardship.

Once they do, expect them to progress at an alarming rate. They need a 'trigger'. Help them.

You're right - I agree, but it's just trying to find that trigger. I've been trying everything for over ten years now, everything I can think of (and ENTP's can think of A LOT! lol), but it's like he's this big fat rock, that just sits there, and all my best efforts, all my attempts, the things I do to try and bring him out, to try and motivate him or get a response - it's like I'm standing there throwing custard pies at this great rock, and each one just splats against it and runs down the surface and onto the ground impotently, nothing seems to penetrate, nothing gets through, and he doesn't budge. I'm about at my wits' end as to what on earth it's going to take to get through to him.

He often said in the past "I want to get better and change, and become a tougher person that can handle life's complications. But I want to get there without all the effort and pain that's involved." And I assumed because of the obvious absurdity of that statement that he was either joking deadpan (he does that a lot), or that he was speaking rhetorically, sorta knowing that it wasn't possible but just saying it like I might say "I want to win the lotto and get a holiday home in the Bahamas". But in the past year it's become clear that he actually means that - and thinks that it's possible, and he refuses to do anything until he finds this 'perfect way', this 'painless way' of getting to a place that we all know can't be reached without pain. And because of course no such way exists, he just never progresses.

INTJMom

09-30-2007, 08:56 PM

INTJMom

09-30-2007, 09:09 PM

Naomi Quenk says that in midlife if an ISTJ doesn't progress positively toward integrating their extraverted intuition along with their tertiary feeling, they can become a more exaggerated version of themselves.

"They may develop rigid rules and unvarying routines, insisting that everyone else conform to their way of doing things."

It's hard to stand by and watch that, isn't it?

If these ISTJs can develop their inferior and tertiary more, they can become better balanced people who will enjoy their families more and who will be enjoyed more by their family and friends.

INTJMom

09-30-2007, 10:02 PM

In Do What You Are (http://www.personalitytype.com/dwya/index.html) the authors have a list of things for you to do to develop your other functions.

I can't excerpt it here because of their copyright, but I will PM it to you.
Maybe it will give you some ideas which might help,
though it seems like you've tried an awful lot already.

substitute

10-01-2007, 09:00 AM

TaylorS

10-05-2007, 04:12 AM

But many of the Gen X and younger ISTJs I know seem to fall in a different category when externally at least they appear differently. On the surface, they are much more casual about things. One thing I noticed in many of them is a love for whimsical/droll humor, or anti-establishment humor. Many of them actually love cartoons (Pinky and the Brain, Warner Brothers, Ren and Stimpy, etc. Most do not seem to like Spongebob much, but perhaps he's a little too goofy/NF for them...) And they get very much into popular video games and can blow off a great deal of time doing unproductive entertainment-oriented things.

Still, they often have conservative values inside, in terms of their faith and their political beliefs. They still often will get very vehement and judgmental of others who violate their religious and political beliefs ("Of course God is real, gays are disgusting and a violation of the natural order, why should we support people who are poor probably because they did not plan well enough in their youth, let's be very tough on crime and maintain capital punishment regardless of circumstances, etc.")

I have an ISTJ co-worker that is right on the edge of the Baby Boom and Generation X who fits that very well. He is laid back and has that "whimsical/droll" sense of humor (he always like to mock is own "anal-retentiveness"), but he is also a conservative Baptist who sends his son to a religious private school.

CzeCze

10-26-2007, 11:41 AM

Normally I don't jump the gun like this, but I'm skipping over all other responses just to say -- wth? I was fascinated by your description of these people and thought perhaps you were making this up or pulled it out of a book, because speaking for myself, I have not interacted much with anyone with this level of dysfunction.

Seriously? Your friends are ill and need professional help.

This goes way beyond personality typing, mental illness trumps MBTI. Hands down. Perhaps people with the combination of disorders/problems your friends have will always test as ISTJ -- but it is NOT 'true' ISTJ. Personality is a gauge of how your ego interacts with the rest of the world, once that mechanism is damaged and breaks down all bets are off. Again, not about MBTI and all about mental illness.

I am frankly kind of shocked that your friends have not had state or family intervention. And I find it really sad that people who THINK they are self-sufficient and capable are allowed to go on living like that.

I'm not jumping on you or your friends or passing a moral or value judgement, but giving a very honest objective POV. Your friends have mental health issues and they need professional help. They are clearly unable to be functional members of society. I'm honestly frightened for the first friend you mentioned if you were to no longer be in his life. You are his last tether to the real world.

I have only seen fleeting shots of families trying to deal with a mentally ill family member who gets progressively more out of touch with society and then reality. It's really painful and difficult and sometimes dangerous because again, the person with illness has no rational understanding of their illness (this is in the case of scizophrenia) and often refuses help as they get deeper and darker into their illness.

I'm not really sure what else to say, other than your description of your friends and their situation seemed so detached and casual. I understand you would write it very matter of fact so we could 'see' the situation, but I almost think because you are so close to the people and have known them for a while that the enormity of the illness doesn't strike you the way it does me -- a stranger and 3rd party observer.

Because it REALLY strikes me as being very serious and warranting intervention.

substitute

10-26-2007, 03:47 PM

Seriously? Your friends are ill and need professional help....

I am frankly kind of shocked that your friends have not had state or family intervention. And I find it really sad that people who THINK they are self-sufficient and capable are allowed to go on living like that.

If you'd read the rest of the thread, you'd have seen that I've already explained that the guy has been inside a nut ward but, due to the inefficiency of the British National Health Service, was discharged despite not feeling ready himself, because the priority has to be given to patients who are dangerous either to the public or themselves, in a physical type of way. He doesn't think he's self-sufficient and neither does anyone else, but there's nowhere he can get help. Social Services aren't interested (I've tried, believe me). The most he can get his regular sessions with a shrink, which he self-sabotages all the time by failing to attend appointments (because he just won't get out of bed).

He has already been diagnosed with OCD and depression and is on so many meds he rattles when he walks. However, knowing him very well and for many years as I do, I also know that the symptoms he now suffers began way back before they reached 'critical mass', in his own tendencies and ways of thinking, which are very much ISTJ, and it's my belief that it's these tendencies, which still exist, which constitute a large part of why he doesn't show any interest in getting better or making an effort.

I'm not really sure what else to say, other than your description of your friends and their situation seemed so detached and casual. I understand you would write it very matter of fact so we could 'see' the situation, but I almost think because you are so close to the people and have known them for a while that the enormity of the illness doesn't strike you the way it does me

And you are more wrong on that than you can possibly imagine. The 'casual' style of my description is something that can either easily be explained by my being an NT, or just the simple fact that I've never seen it as anything at all constructive to go panicking and getting overly emotional about a situation, experience telling that this doesn't help things at all. So my personal response to a very bad situation that is getting out of control and needs action, is to remain as calm and objective as I possibly can, in order not to bring more chaos to the situation and to figure out a solution. And it's why I ask for information, ideas and inspiration, which are what I need to help him, rather than sympathy, admiration or reassurance, which are not.

If I didn't care, why would I be asking for advice about it? Do you not think that I might have been trying other avenues before and while I'm asking opinions on an anonymous internet forum? It's precisely because I care, and because the enormity of it doesn't escape me, and because I'm with it day after day, that I take the decision to remain calm and cool about it. What would you suggest - that I spend my days wailing and weeping and gnashing my teeth and yelling futilely at the disinterested public health authority bureaucrats to look within themselves and find a special place in their hearts for this poor, screwed up bastard? C'mon...

It's only because of me that he ever goes out of his bloody front door at all, and that in the last few months he has been making an effort to see a shrink, though progress is slow. However, I'm not a health professional and I do have my own life to lead, and my own responsibilities, namely a business that employs 14 people and raising two kids (including an autistic one) on my own, plus the recent death of my father, the administration of whose estate (miles away from where I live) has fallen solely to me. I can't revolve my life around him, though I do do far more than anyone else has ever done or considered doing for him - including paid professionals - and far more than is healthy for my physical and mental stress levels. Which, considering I'm not only not related to him and he's just some guy I met randomly in a pub one day, and considering I'm supposedly a cold, sociopathic ENTP, isn't bad going. Where are all those empathic NF's with their strong humanitarian values? Oh yes - they're avoiding him and refusing to talk to him because he's "mean and rude". So fuck you, "frankly".

But this is something that's always pissed me off in the past about some people, who assume that just because someone doesn't get all het up on the outside and panicking, it's a sign of them not caring. Quite the opposite, my gun-jumping friend. Y'know, some of us are able to put our own emotional responses on a backburner in order to put higher priority on the needs of others and the importance of finding a solution to a problem. It's called being calm in a crisis and is a highly valued skill in most societies, not something to be criticised or condemned ;)

INTJMom

10-26-2007, 04:54 PM

...who assume that just because someone doesn't get all het up on the outside and panicking, it's a sign of them not caring. Quite the opposite, my gun-jumping friend. Y'know, some of us are able to put our own emotional responses on a backburner in order to put higher priority on the needs of others and the importance of finding a solution to a problem. It's called being calm in a crisis and is a highly valued skill in most societies...I have this ability too, and I think it comes across like I don't care, but you're right - if I get all emotionally worked up, I'm not going to be calm enough to think of a solution.

substitute

10-26-2007, 06:17 PM

I have this ability too, and I think it comes across like I don't care, but you're right - if I get all emotionally worked up, I'm not going to be calm enough to think of a solution.

rambling story alert!

I remember when my daughter got hit by a car. I saw her cartwheel across the road and land on the kerb, shaking, in shock, and then screaming like the very hounds of hell. I dropped what I was carrying and rushed over, but as soon as I saw that it was, at most, a broken foot, the worry was over. I knew immediately that it'd be fixable, nothing permanent or life threatening, so the panic was over for me and it was just a case of gritting my teeth through all the motions - calling an ambulance, waiting in casualty, having to find someone to look after my other daughter while I stayed with her in hospital for a day or so, then having her hobbling around on crutches for a few weeks and milking it for all it was worth.

So I called the ambulance on my cellphone and just sat waiting with her and the other one (the autistic one, who was unaffected by it all except just curious lol), for it to arrive while she screamed and screamed and screamed. I just blocked it out and I might've been singing '99 bottles of beer on the wall' for all that I was bothered. Of course, I wanted to take her pain away but I couldn't, I knew I couldn't, so I just sat tight and waited.

Meanwhile, some woman came flouncing out from a nearby house, announcing that everything was alright now, as she was a nursery nurse. Wtf? I laughed and said to her dryly, "What, have you brought your emergency storybook?" And she scowled at me and started coddling and fussing over my daughter, asking her questions that she clearly had no interest in answering because she was too busy screaming and being in pain. More 'concerned residents and locals' emerged from god knows where, and before long we were surrounded by worrying, fussing strangers. Meanwhile I just sat there, holding her still and hugging her, thinking about how I was going to manage the next couple of days of chaos and devising plans and solutions.

The ambulance came and they checked her out - yeah, probably a broken foot, they said, and we got in and went through the whole ordeal with X-rays and stuff at the hospital, during which time she was given some morphine for the pain and finally stopped screaming. Whereupon she was able to tell me that all those fussers and worriers who had come to express their sympathy had really annoyed her, and she wished they'd just get lost (as did I), and she also said that it was so painful that the only thing that helped her get through it was my calm, unperturbed presence. And that she knew everything was going to be alright, because I wasn't panicking, and she was only screaming because a) it hurt and b) she wanted to drown out the rabble and was hoping to make them give up and go back to minding their own business.

But a couple of days later, I was told by a neighbour that one of the fussing women had said to her that she was disgusted and shocked at how little I seemed to care that my kid had been hit by a car, and how I seemed to just sit there, not bothered by it as though the reality of the situation hadn't hit me.

Funny, eh? :)

[/ramble]

Splittet

10-26-2007, 07:56 PM

I find it always quite provoking how so many people seem to think there is only one correct response to a lot of things. For example in this case, a woman basically thought there was only one proper way for you to show you care for your daughter, and that is in the way she would show. The lack of ability to see perspectives different from your own is really quite stunning in many people.

substitute

10-26-2007, 08:06 PM

Yes - in fact, I think it's more like the reality of the situation hadn't hit HER! That is, that my daughter was in no great danger, and that everything would soon be fine - a reality that I'd grasped quite quickly, resulting in zero worry.

I always think it's strange how some people tend to think that if you don't respond in the same way they do, it means you don't understand the situation, as well as that you don't care. It reminds me of when I've sometimes argued with some people over religion, rolling my eyes as they claim that I don't understand them, simply because I don't agree. The implication being that if I understood what they were saying, then of course I'd agree, because they're 'obviously' right - what towering arrogance!!

Actually, these posts should be split into a separate thread about different responses to situations and the way they're judged by others. Not sure what to call it though!

prplchknz

10-26-2007, 08:22 PM

Yeah, I can't help with the first two people or anything.But the guy with OCD that really sucks, hope everything works out for him

But I can relate to people calling me cold or uncaring, not because I don't care. I just don't see the point in showing my emotions on my sleave and be sympathetic towards anyone and everyone.I also don't like being smothered by strangers, their's a handful of people I'd want at my funeral or visiting me in the hospital. Also when I care about someone and they're hurt I don't like crying in front of others. I also process things internally, so instead of my exploding when approriate it be two days later when some one cuts in front of me. Then according to them I'm over reacting maybe I am. Also I would have been like your daughter wishing everyone would leave.

hotmale

10-27-2007, 12:16 AM

They both sneer at people with jobs and careers and at phrases like "sense of honour" or "personal dignity" - they think it's a pile of old crap... though my guess is that it's their very overly critical fathers that they're actually trying to 'defy' by saying those things, I think that a large part of why they live the way they do is because they're still locked in a sort of 'rebellion' against their fathers (though Dave's is dead long ago and Adam's hasn't seen him in years).

So WTF is up with all this?

:rofl1: Now, I really enjoy your posts, substitute. They're usually full of gleaming insight and untrollish satire. However, from that testosterone driven NF-moralizing rant which I say was very un-NTish of you, I'll say the two guys have a chip on their shoulder.

Do you feel competitive with either ISTJs?

substitute

10-27-2007, 12:28 AM

:rofl1: Now, I really enjoy your posts, substitute. They're usually full of gleaming insight and untrollish satire. However, from that testosterone driven NF-moralizing rant ...

Do you feel competitive with either ISTJs?

No dude, you got me wrong... it wasn't a theorizing thing or a rant, that's what they've said to me themselves, and what they've both said their shrinks have said in the past, which, though they dismiss it, I believe there's more to it and that they only dismiss it because they don't wanna face upto it.

Oh, but if you mean the other thing, in response to the ENFP - well, fire with fire, innit.

And I don't have a competitive bone in my body. In fact, I'm far less competitive than anyone I know. I'm the least competitive person in the world, far less than you or anyone else on this forum. Wanna step outside and prove it? :rofl1:

Oh and...

which I say was very un-NTish of you,

I wear my type. It does not wear me :D

hotmale

10-27-2007, 12:39 AM

And I don't have a competitive bone in my body. In fact, I'm far less competitive than anyone I know. I'm the least competitive person in the world, far less than you or anyone else on this forum.

Hahahaha, says the most competitive man on the forum. :hi:

Well, carry on...

substitute

10-27-2007, 12:47 AM

Hahahaha, says the most competitive man on the forum. :hi:

Well, carry on...

Yah, not big on sarcasm then?

And what's this?

Now, I really enjoy your posts, substitute. They're usually full of gleaming insight and untrollish satire.

You're easily pleased then :laugh: I thought they were mostly full of shit. The first shit that comes to mind, most of the time... heheh...

(no, seriously though, thank you, I shall treasure that compliment. I don't get many personal ones so I have to usually take all the general ENTP ones personally to satiate my fragile ego :cry: )

hotmale

10-27-2007, 12:53 AM

You're easily pleased then :laugh: I thought they were mostly full of shit. The first shit that comes to mind, most of the time... heheh...

(no, seriously though, thank you, I shall treasure that compliment. I don't get many personal ones so I have to usually take all the general ENTP ones personally to satiate my fragile ego :cry: )

Dude, sure you're not an INFP?

Alright, just kidding, just kidding! Every ENTP I've come across have had big egos. But they can take it as much as they dish out. Not to mention, but they're also good at recognizing their weaknesses where others attempt to hide them. That is why they are so lovable. :)

substitute

10-27-2007, 12:59 AM

Alright, just kidding, just kidding! Every ENTP I've come across have had put on an act of having big egos to cover up how insecure they really are.

ooOO(Ah, he's fallen for the old trick...)

There you are - fixed.

But really, I wouldn't know a 'value' if it bit me on the ass. Amoral, I'd be, completely, if I didn't have someone ruling me with a rod of iron :blush:

hotmale

10-27-2007, 01:51 AM

There you are - fixed.

I can see now that you prefer to hear what you really want to hear as opposed to what people are saying to you. You must have a vivid imagination.

substitute

10-27-2007, 09:48 AM

Dude, you're pretty odd... someone tries to accept a compliment whilst also having reservations about it because of honesty, and you accuse them of the opposite...? Eh, well I like you anyway :)

(my usual relationship with ESTJ's - we don't understand each other and never will, so let's not try and just accept that we like each other for some odd reason, and not ruin it by trying to puzzle out why! lol)

CzeCze

10-27-2007, 11:38 AM

It's only because of me that he ever goes out of his bloody front door at all, and that in the last few months he has been making an effort to see a shrink, though progress is slow. However, I'm not a health professional and I do have my own life to lead, and my own responsibilities, namely a business that employs 14 people and raising two kids (including an autistic one) on my own, plus the recent death of my father, the administration of whose estate (miles away from where I live) has fallen solely to me. I can't revolve my life around him, though I do do far more than anyone else has ever done or considered doing for him - including paid professionals - and far more than is healthy for my physical and mental stress levels. Which, considering I'm not only not related to him and he's just some guy I met randomly in a pub one day, and considering I'm supposedly a cold, sociopathic ENTP, isn't bad going. Where are all those empathic NF's with their strong humanitarian values? Oh yes - they're avoiding him and refusing to talk to him because he's "mean and rude". So fuck you, "frankly".

But this is something that's always pissed me off in the past about some people, who assume that just because someone doesn't get all het up on the outside and panicking, it's a sign of them not caring. Quite the opposite, my gun-jumping friend. Y'know, some of us are able to put our own emotional responses on a backburner in order to put higher priority on the needs of others and the importance of finding a solution to a problem. It's called being calm in a crisis and is a highly valued skill in most societies, not something to be criticised or condemned ;)

Testy aren't we?

First of all, though I did point out the detached tone of your original post, you'll see that I never accused you of 'not doing enough' or 'not doing more' or even of being uncaring. In fact, I acknowledged you were (I think the inexact quote was) 'the last tether to reality' for one of your friends. And I added that I was afraid for what would happen to him if you were not in his life.

I think perhaps my response hit a nerve with you because of other comments people have made to you -- actually I know so as you followed it up by saying a lot of other people have accused you of being uncaring b/c of the way you react to things.

Well, I was not one of those people. I understand where you're at can be frustrating, and I took your response with a grain of salt as a response to 'all those other people'. I think everyone and even grouped by personality types, can get fed up with other pepole not 'getting them' or misjudging them. After all, I'm also on this board.

It's unfair to jump on me for something I didn't say.

To give more background on where I am coming from, I have known a number of people wiith clinical depression and mood disorders with and w/o suicide attempts, which have at certain points made them barely or nonfunctional members of society and cost them jobs, relationships, and scholarships -- including one or two people with scizophrenic symptoms (having heard voices, illusions of grandeur and superhuman abilities etc.) and online have answered posts from scizophrenic people who don't seem to know they are scizophrenic and moreover "don't feel like doing something artificial like take medication"

In my experience, mental illness is NOT given the seriousness it deserves -- people's attitudes are so cavalier -- which you also alluded to in your explanation of how the public system has failed your friend. That's one thing that very much is in the front of my mind when discussing mental illness with strangers like on this forum.

Also, my statements about the detached tone of your post was formed if you notice as a question. I was ASKING you if you saw the magnitude of the problem. Sure, on your end as the poster and someone who is living it, you know what you know. But, little ole me on THIS side of the screen trying to decipher text with a detached tone to boot -- it's a valid question.

As for the 'NF's being hypocritical and avoiding your friends, that's kinda a sweeping generalization isn't it? How do you know that they are NF's and that ALL NF's are like this and further how do you know I would fall into this category just because I'm listed as "ENFP"? That could probably be another thread in itself

Yes, I get your frustration, I get that people react to situations and relay information in different ways, but dude, you can chill out. I was not condemning you. In fact, I was trying to be of help. As in I'm in your corner, as opposed to facing off against you. My response might not have been what you wanted or expected, but that's the nature of public forums.

substitute

10-27-2007, 04:31 PM

Oh hang on, no, I've seen this one. My brother does it all the time and he's ENFP; "sorry" isn't a word that comes easily to him either... It's the classic disclaimer-veiled accusation-denial, and invalidation tactic. Example:

Well-meaning, interfering stranger:I'm not saying you're a lazy, apathetic bum [disclaimer], but shouldn't you get up and get a job?[accusative rhetorical question]
Dude: Fuck you man, you don't even know me, and didn't you listen to all the reasons I already told you why I can't?[legitimate annoyance and indignation]
Stranger: Hey I said I wasn't accusing you of anything [total denial of the accusation], so no need to get all touchy! [invalidation of the person's response and discrediting of their perception] I was just asking whether you knew... [morphing what was blatantly a rhetorical question into a supposedly gentle, genuine enquiry]

Tchah... it's a good tactic, well done, bravo :)

But yeah, of course there's an element of venting annoyance at other people who've done that. But I don't randomly go around venting annoyance at people for things that are nothing to do with anything they said or did, that other people have. There's always got to be some reason, something that I'm responding to, which has given me reason to connect what's been said to me with wrongs done to me before either by the person in question or others.

I appreciate that I might've jumped in on the defensive too hotly, and that you probably only meant well, however. No hard feelings. All's fair in love and Ne ;)