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Originally Posted by targo

yes varelse that is true too!

Have you ever had a heated discussion with an entp? They are set to win, set to make all be persuaded to their point of view, they are strong willed and strong minded.

Targo, you just described my brother as well! lol I admit that I have been that way too, and have had to work hard on myself to try to restrain that side of me and still only succeed about 40% of the time, but he does it JUST as bad as I ever did, and what's more he has no intention of changing it because he believes he's completely justified.

I think perhaps what Varelse said about expecting an ENFP to be more hurt by criticism rings somewhat true... I might also (controversially and really asking for it, I know!) add that this could lead to the ENTP being more likely to correct this fault, being made more aware of it by others' reactions and criticisms, whilst ENFP is more likely to carry on, oblivious to it or believing it's okay, because people are less willing to lay into them about it... putting any criticisms that do come in down to people "being mean" or "having it in for them" (see above... ha...) rather than considering any validity in the words.

In my brother's defence, he does consider the things people say and mull it over later on when he's on his own, and sometimes he does admit he's wrong. But he very rarely apologizes - his version of an apology is to just swan up like nothing happened and expect everyone to forget all about it and never mention it again (if you do, then you're "holding grudges"). He never actually publicly admits to any fault in himself, whilst I know I do and can produce witnesses!

I don't mean to sound as though I measure all ENFP's by my brother - I know that he's not a particularly healthy example (though I love him dearly! ), though I've seen worse. And I'm not the best example of how ENTP's handle this kinda thing because I've had the last few years of pretty strict external discipline forcing me to restrain and meditate on these faults in myself and so have been working on them perhaps harder and faster than many other ENTP's might - certainly more than I would've of my own volition, without that external force.

But I've only mentioned the issues with my brother where they chime in with what I've read about ENFP's when they're not at their best (as I have read up a lot, in an effort to sort things out with him!!), and where they also tally with other experience I've had with other ENFP's. Granted I've only known three people in my life that I can confidently type as ENFP, but I doubt members here can say truthfully that they've met that many ENTP's either; we are rare, comparatively.

Going back to the part in your post that I bolded above, I have to say that yes, I have known ENFP's to have exactly that mindset as well, but they tend to be more covert about it - perhaps in denial about it to themselves, even. It's harder to detect it in ENFP's because whilst the ENTP is fairly obvious and up front about "this is my point and I'm right, just admit it", the ENFP's "point" isn't always an intellectual or verbal one, but a more subtle, personal one, that might not be easily recognized as a point at all, amongst all the empathy and stuff.

It can often be more a case of wanting desperately the gratification that comes from someone saying "Yes, you're right!" and taking their advice and stuff, I know my brother gets carried away with a train of thought, a series of events he expects to happen: they'll agree with me - they'll do what I suggest - everything will be wonderful - they'll thank me and I'll be able to bask in the glory! But then sometimes it falls down because he gets too wrapped up in that plan and anticipating the wonderful events to come, to be able to focus on what that person really wants and what's realistic and feasible for them where they're at right now.